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Thread: Rythm

  1. #1

    Default Rythm

    I'm looking for exercises to work on rythm, alternating closed and open chords/sound. Does anyone have a reference for this ? Thanks.

  2. #2
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rythm

    They often say: ‘remember a mandolin isn’t a small guitar’.

    Here’s a bunch of strum patterns, you could try these along with a metronome and doublestop exercises.
    https://ukulelego.com/wp-content/upl...ele-strums.pdf

    Good luck!

  3. #3

    Default Re: Rythm

    Thank you Simon.
    Can you give me some examples of the doublestop exercises you are talking about ?

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    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rythm

    Here’s a vid #2 I did a couple of years ago. It explains at least some of the main things about doublestops but I don’t talk about 3,5 double stops (mainly because they’re more ambiguous).


    https://youtu.be/7SsNJkZBKuA

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    Default Re: Rythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikh View Post
    ... alternating closed and open chords/sound.
    Sounds like you're thinking of something more specific than most of us might. Example?
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    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rythm

    I have a few song breakdowns that cover playing the chords in at least 2 positions for a specific songs here https://mattcbruno.com/weekly-posts/. I just put one out on June Apple today too https://mattcbruno.com/2022/06/13/june-apple/. Basically, learn both variations separately, then mix and match them - like alternate which variation you use with each measure or something. If you're interested in a specific tune, LMK - I may have something already for it.

    From a timing standpoint, I have a Divided Time post coming up in the near future (schedule to post 6/18). This covers some basic rhythm ideas. It's not specific to chords - but might be helpful given your post. If you give me your email address, I can send you a preview of it.

    More generally, here's some general changes with a variety of chord shapes that you can mix / match in a given key https://mattcbruno.com/chord-library/. These are just basic chords with different positions. There are 1 4 5 changes for most of the keys - though I do have to fix this page up a bit.
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  9. #7

    Default Re: Rythm

    I would like some exercises that help me to play a rhythmic accompaniment with chops that allow me to integrate also open chords from time to time (like Chris Thile in Brakeman's blues for example : https://youtu.be/U-V5J67e-FQ).

  10. #8

    Default Re: Rythm

    Thank you ! Here's my email, if you can send me a preview : eric.houliere2@gmail.com

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    Default Re: Rythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikh View Post
    Thank you ! Here's my email, if you can send me a preview : eric.houliere2@gmail.com
    Sent
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    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rythm

    I've been a hollerin' this from the mountain tops: "Rhythm on mandolin is not taught or discussed as much as it should be!!" Rhythm does not equal chord shapes. There are lots of resources for chord charts and scales etc... basically "put your fingers here and squeeze". But lessons and instructional material on actually playing rhythm are harder to come by. There are probably thousands of threads about where to put your fingers, how to fret this and that. I've begun to think that discussing melodic and harmonic concepts is either easier to talk about or just more fun to talk about than discussing timing and rhythm concepts.

    Sam Bush's "All About Rhythm Mandolin" is one of the only resources for rhythm playing that I know of.

    https://www.homespun.com/shop/produc...ythm-mandolin/

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    Default Re: Rythm

    Ky couldn't agree more- rhythm is one of the fundamentals of any music, and is usually very basic in instructional form - 4 quarter notes, 8 quarter notes and so on.
    I always find when playing with others incorrect rhythm is worse than incorrect notes (mia culpa on both of those).

    that being said advanced rhythmic concepts and techniques require a lot of listening to "other" types of music than you are familiar with, (heck I have trouble finding people who can stay in 3/4 time for more than a few measures before drifting back to 4/4).

    most mandolin students focus on melodies and chords and tunes, this is perfectly acceptable and expected to some degree.
    Certainly Sam Bush comes to mind as having invented entirely new rhythmic patterns on mandolin, Mike Marshall is "known" for keeping impeccable rhythm, but there is something to be said about playing a melody or solo in rhythm with the tune (Reischman and Dawg come to mind there)

    so while I think advanced rhythm playing adds to any musician's skills, it is generally not for beginners and not for the nervous at all.
    I would like to see some workshops or video tutorials focusing strictly on rhythm techniques, styles, exercises, concepts.
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  18. #12

    Default Re: Rythm

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    ... there is something to be said about playing a melody or solo in rhythm with the tune ...
    Please would you explain more about this?
    Thanks,
    sounds_good

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    Default Re: Rythm

    Now we’re talking Mr Sweeney!
    Yes I agree.

    One thought I had was, have you every watched a film of a soccer match from the 1950’s? Notice how the men (probably) move their bodies.
    Then check a vid of soccer players from 2022.
    They move their bodies VERY differently, they even walk differently.
    Why is that, and what does it mean for mandolin players?

    Another one. Try playing quarter notes with a metronome and each note in the measure is played differently but VERY regularly different.
    Try striking the strings with different force, and very slightly different note lengths… but each, for example second note is played the same as the other second notes.

    Important : Learn to know which of the four notes you are playing at any time, and especially have different body movements for each one.
    Then do the same with eighth notes.

    If you repeat a measure over and over with the same melodic eighth note phrase then it should have a rippling EXACTLY repeating subtle, complex, rhythmic feel.
    (All of this with a drum machine).

    If you feel your playing is too heavy on the 3rd notes, deliberately change it, try to play anything you find difficult (rhythmically speaking). 7/8 time, fast DUD,DUD jigs, Strathspeys etc.

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    Default Re: Rythm

    Quote Originally Posted by sounds_good View Post
    Please would you explain more about this?
    I would refer you to the guitar picking of Doc Watson for a solid example (Doc and the Boys "Spikedriver Blues"), Doc's leads, lead the rhythm, its not like the band is playing rhythm for him to solo over, the bass and guitars follow the lead instrument, Grisman does this as well often, Jerry Douglas, Mark O'Connor as well.
    Even Doc and Dawg play in front of or over the rhythm often but there are occasions where its clear who is driving.
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    Default Re: Rythm

    I've begun to think that discussing melodic and harmonic concepts is either easier to talk about or just more fun to talk about than discussing timing and rhythm concepts.
    I think this is the main roadblock - advanced rhythm concepts are very difficult to describe verbally. They resist being broken down into the very basic mathematical language that we can use with melodic and harmonic ideas. They also tend to be very particular to individual players. It seems to be a thing that is much more easily demonstrated than explained.
    Mitch Russell

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  23. #16
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    Default Re: Rythm

    Posted by tmsweeney:
    ... there is something to be said about playing a melody or solo in rhythm with the tune

    Quote Originally Posted by sounds_good View Post
    Please would you explain more about this?
    I think that each melodic phrase has a rhythm of it’s own but you can only hear that unique rhythm if some of the other phrases are rhythmically uniform. That’s what makes the rippling changes stand out.

    Each player has a certain rhythm. And each whole tune has a certain rhythmic feeling and then there are variations.

    The variations have to occur for the right reasons. For example, a hesitation because it’s a big stretch up the neck doesn’t sound so good, but a couple of hesitations in the right places, before and after that 'error', will tend to round it off.

  24. #17

    Default Re: Rythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    Posted by tmsweeney:
    ... there is something to be said about playing a melody or solo in rhythm with the tune



    I think that each melodic phrase has a rhythm of it’s own but you can only hear that unique rhythm if some of the other phrases are rhythmically uniform. That’s what makes the rippling changes stand out.

    Each player has a certain rhythm. And each whole tune has a certain rhythmic feeling and then there are variations.

    The variations have to occur for the right reasons. For example, a hesitation because it’s a big stretch up the neck doesn’t sound so good, but a couple of hesitations in the right places, before and after that 'error', will tend to round it off.
    Thank you. I can relate to this. In one song I have practiced being quicker
    moving to a higher fret. Moving back down I alter the rhythm to leave a little
    extra time in case I mess up. Though I usually don't need it I keep that time
    in there as my way of doing it. I don't know how well that would work in a group.
    Thanks,
    sounds_good

  25. #18

    Default Re: Rythm

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    I would refer you to the guitar picking of Doc Watson for a solid example (Doc and the Boys "Spikedriver Blues"), Doc's leads, lead the rhythm, its not like the band is playing rhythm for him to solo over, the bass and guitars follow the lead instrument, Grisman does this as well often, Jerry Douglas, Mark O'Connor as well.
    Even Doc and Dawg play in front of or over the rhythm often but there are occasions where its clear who is driving.
    Thank you. I am listening to that. The tempo is pretty fast.
    I think it will take me some practice to understand which
    instrument is setting the rhythm. Except for the banjo.

    I am still a beginner on plating mandolin, but mixing I pay
    close attention to lead changes. I see the fiddle players
    keeping time with the bow getting ready to come in. I
    see the foot tapping to keep time. I think experienced
    players have an internal metronome they use to maintain
    short term rhythm. I guess they update that by listening
    to some other player. Maybe that is the bass player, but
    what keeps the bass in time?

    I have recorded using click track. It makes post easier,
    but I think the musicians become too mechanical, too
    fixed on timing rather than playing together. I don't like
    using a click track. Constant rhythm isn't everything.

    There is more to be learned here if I can find it.
    Thanks,
    sounds_good

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    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rythm

    A great resource is Ted Reid’s syncopation for the modern drummer. You’ll need rudimentary reading and of course you can only read one line but there are some great patterns in there. Sam Bush himself says he listens to the snare drum, citing among others Stewart Copeland.
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    Default Re: Rythm

    another reference would be John Reischman's solo version of Little Pine Siskin, a good example of rhythmic melody
    "Mean Old Timer, He's got grey hair, Mean Old Timer he just don't care
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  28. #21

    Default Re: Rythm

    Quote Originally Posted by Ky Slim View Post
    I've been a hollerin' this from the mountain tops: "Rhythm on mandolin is not taught or discussed as much as it should be!!" Rhythm does not equal chord shapes.
    No kidding. Of course, it's because the word has two meanings; one being related to timing, and the other being related to role (lead vs. backup.) And usually, folks are taking this second meaning. But even when we're talking about playing backup, the timing of the rhythm patterns REALLY MATTERS! (This is equally true for lead, but it has a name: "phrasing." Like rhythm, it's much more rarely discussed but incredibly important. One of the biggest limitations I have as a lead player is that I just haven't trained myself to a wider palette of phrasings, so even when I change the notes, my licks sound too much the same!)

    Sam is one of my heroes and I've always loved the way he is often the percussionist in the band (like when he was with New Grass Revival, and even as the headliner in his own band.) I bet that's a great resource!

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    Default Re: Rythm

    To what ever extent this helps someone. Its fascinating and worth watching the whole thing. 10 minutes well spent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X1fhVLVF_4
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    Default Re: Rythm

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    To what ever extent this helps someone. Its fascinating and worth watching the whole thing. 10 minutes well spent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X1fhVLVF_4
    I came here today looking for rhythm / pulse exercises and this is SO on point, thank you so much.

    That last one especially is a killer

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    Default Re: Rythm

    That Victor metronome exercise is awesome, but there is a point where one begins to question the metronome's beat accuracy compared to Victor's.
    "Mean Old Timer, He's got grey hair, Mean Old Timer he just don't care
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