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Thread: Old S.S. Stewart mandolin

  1. #51
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old S.S. Stewart mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    I would be surprised if a maker tasked with building a mandolin that was in the style of another maker would go so far as to slavishly copy the volute but I may be wrong. Clearly, an in-hand inspection would probably detect other detail differences in the construction but they would be most likely to be found inside the instrument and not noticeable to anybody who was not an expert with a well-attuned eye for such things. Certainly with the common "is it a Larson?" debate, one obvious area is the different volutes and other external differences in the binding etc. I suppose at some stage somebody will make a definitive pronouncement on who made an instrument such as this example. As I wrote earlier, there are other S S Stewart retailed mandolins that have a Martin look to them but are definitely not Martin crafted but the maker's identity has never been resolved and probably, never will be. The bottom line is, this is a fine instrument and will be judged on its own merit irrespective of who made it.
    Martin wasn't the first company to use a volute, they certainly didn't invent it.
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  2. #52
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old S.S. Stewart mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Favilla was famous for copying Martin designs, did good work and was in NYC. It could have been built by them or by just about anyone that was trying to fill an order and had the technical know how. Richard and his partner Frank have been around these things a long time and I assume they have had a few more of these in hand than most of us and I also try not to rush to judgement but I saw the volute and figured they were at least close. What I was really looking for was that joint that created the first volutes that Martin used to do but this was most likely much later.
    I'm not sure I'm with you on this, Mike.

    I'd like to see one of these "Favilla copies" that we can be sure about.

    Favilla had their own line of flatbacks with a distinctly different body shape. If they were going to copy a Martin mandolin verbatim, the simply question as to
    "why" comes to mind, when Martin was already making mandolins for other vendors.

    And Favilla never used that volute joint on their mandolins. I have a hard time contemplating that they would go to those lengths for a couple of copies when Martin was already making mandolins without it.

    Speculation, of course, like "because they had a customer" will always be possible answers, but again, sometimes the simplest answer is the easiest.

    If Richard and Frank have seen these in hand...and checked out things like the bracing inside then I think their reputation and cred comes to bear.

    If they are guessing from photos, like we are, then I'm less convinced.

    We've seen a few odds and ends "Martin employee" instruments here that had a wide range of non standard details.
    I bought an 'unfinished Martin' mandolin off of ebay a few years ago: rim set, unfinished neck, top, no back that must have walked out the door somehow.

    I don't think Martin was as free from improvisation as we might feel based on the consistency of their iconic instruments.

    Mick
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  3. #53
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    Default Re: Old S.S. Stewart mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    I'm not sure I'm with you on this, Mike.

    I'd like to see one of these "Favilla copies" that we can be sure about.

    Favilla had their own line of flatbacks with a distinctly different body shape. If they were going to copy a Martin mandolin verbatim, the simply question as to
    "why" comes to mind, when Martin was already making mandolins for other vendors.

    And Favilla never used that volute joint on their mandolins. I have a hard time contemplating that they would go to those lengths for a couple of copies when Martin was already making mandolins without it.

    Speculation, of course, like "because they had a customer" will always be possible answers, but again, sometimes the simplest answer is the easiest.

    If Richard and Frank have seen these in hand...and checked out things like the bracing inside then I think their reputation and cred comes to bear.

    If they are guessing from photos, like we are, then I'm less convinced.

    We've seen a few odds and ends "Martin employee" instruments here that had a wide range of non standard details.
    I bought an 'unfinished Martin' mandolin off of ebay a few years ago: rim set, unfinished neck, top, no back that must have walked out the door somehow.

    I don't think Martin was as free from improvisation as we might feel based on the consistency of their iconic instruments.

    Mick
    Favilla was a manufacturer that needed business to stay in businesses and was pretty good sized at one time. With that said, the earlier Favilla products were obviously their own but they did more than their share of work for the trade. Take a look at this mandolin. Does it look familiar? Sure, this was in the late 50's or early 60's but they had been building Martin clones on the guitar side for a long time. They certainly had the ability to build whatever they were contracted to build and I'm sure they did. Could they have built this SS Stewart mandolin? I'm positive they could have and would have but that doesn't mean they did or didn't. Just that they had a history and the capacity. Also, that's not a volute joint it's a carved volute as far as I can see. Even Martin wasn't using that volute on everything when this was built.

    I'm not saying it's not a Martin instrument but it might not be.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  4. #54
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old S.S. Stewart mandolin

    Thanks, Mike.

    Can you resend that link? It's only leading me to a Reverb home page.

    Yes...you're right, I mispoke / typed. That volute (thank you, Diego Garber) isn't an actual joint.
    Likely serving both decorative and structural functions.
    Like the architectural volutes I had originally tied to the term.

    Favilla in the '20s were still putting out mandolins and mountains of ukes. Picking up a stray one-off (well in this case two-off) Martin copy wasn't going to push them into the black. Fast forward 30 or 40 years? Maybe a different story.

    Who else was using that neck - headstock 'volute detail'? If there were, they might turn out to be the unusual suspect.

    Since Martin wasn't using them on all their mandolins, you could put out a successful, believable Martin copy for hire without having to go to that extra effort.

    I suppose if you were a true counterfitter, adding that extra detail would be just enough to throw the detectives off your case.


    Every so often the NYTimes used to run a piece on time big art fogeries and forgerers. I really enjoyed reading those.

    Mick
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  5. #55
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Old S.S. Stewart mandolin

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Thanks, Mike.

    Can you resend that link? It's only leading me to a Reverb home page.

    Yes...you're right, I mispoke / typed. That volute (thank you, Diego Garber) isn't an actual joint.
    Likely serving both decorative and structural functions.
    Like the architectural volutes I had originally tied to the term.

    Favilla in the '20s were still putting out mandolins and mountains of ukes. Picking up a stray one-off (well in this case two-off) Martin copy wasn't going to push them into the black. Fast forward 30 or 40 years? Maybe a different story.

    Who else was using that neck - headstock 'volute detail'? If there were, they might turn out to be the unusual suspect.

    Since Martin wasn't using them on all their mandolins, you could put out a successful, believable Martin copy for hire without having to go to that extra effort.

    I suppose if you were a true counterfitter, adding that extra detail would be just enough to throw the detectives off your case.


    Every so often the NYTimes used to run a piece on time big art fogeries and forgerers. I really enjoyed reading those.

    Mick
    Does this link work?

    https://reverb.com/item/48529749

    Both are working for me. See if you can search for item 48529749 on Reverb.

    I don't see this as a forgery unless someone put the Martin markings on it. I can see a wholesale distributor buyer that was looking at a specific market saying make the body look like this and the headstock and neck look like that. Make the trim the same as this or that. I just don't know and I doubt they made one or two of these they may have made dozens. Then when nobody was buying them they stopped. No way of knowing.

    It's not a new concept and even Martin is somewhat guilty of the same activities even today with their CEO line of guitars.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  6. #56

    Default Re: Old S.S. Stewart mandolin

    After Stewart passed away, his sons took over the business, and around 1915 B&J bought the name and apparently doled out builds to a variety of builders. Do a google search for S.S. Stewart Martin guitar. When I bought a R.S. Williams banjo that was pretty much a S.S. Stewart banjo sold in Canada, I stumbled across this site, and it has several Martin guitars with the Stewart label.

    https://mydirtyguitarhabit.com/s-s-s...banjeau-maker/

    I am afraid that without some other makers mark, this mandolin may not be easy to pin down who exactly made it.
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  8. #57
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    Default Re: Old S.S. Stewart mandolin

    A brief and incomplete chronology of the SS Stewart company:

    1878: Samuel Swain Stewart begins building banjos and establishes a factory in Philadelphia.
    1898: SS Stewart takes on George Bauer as a business partner. Stewart passes away in April.
    1898 - 1901: Bauer takes control of the company and pushes Stewart's sons out of the business.
    1901: Stewart's sons set up on their own, but give up around 1904
    1901: Bauer continues selling instruments with the Stewart name until perhaps 1910. At some point, the factory is closed, and manufacturing is farmed out.
    1911: The Keenophone Company acquires the Stewart name and continues to distribute instruments.
    1915: Buegeleisen and Jacobson [B & J] acquires the Stewart name, and distributes Stewart branded instruments at least until WWII. These instruments include banjos, guitars, mandolins, and ukeleles. All manufacturing is farmed out.

    Many of the Stewart instruments built for B & J were made by Chicago manufacturers such as Harmony, probably Lyon & Healy and Regal, and perhaps Slingerland. Other companies that built instruments with the Stewart name include Gibson and Martin. B & J also distributed instruments under other brand names, including Victoria. It would probably be safe to say that at one time or another, most US manufacturers of any size built at least a few instruments for B & J under various brand names.

    I had a nice Victoria [by B & J] flat back mandolin go through my hands a few years ago. It was quite different in design from the OP's instrument. My guess was that it was made by either Regal or Oscar Schmidt. It was a good sounding mandolin.

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