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Thread: Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

  1. #1

    Default Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

    I recently purchased, sight unseen, a 1927 Gibson A. I was able to buy it for a fair price, so I took the risk.. :D

    It arrived this evening and I haven't much experience dealing with vintage instruments, so I am hoping for some guidance on what to look for while I still have the option to return it.

    Here are my visual observations:

    1. I believe all hardware - case, tail piece, tuners, bridge, pick guard - is original.
    2. I believe the fretboard is original. The frets are small, which I understand to be typical of these old Gibsons.
    3. Tuners are difficult to use, which I suspect lends credence to their originality.
    4. Frets appear in good condition.
    5. Bridge looks straight.
    6. Not sure if the top has sunken slightly?

    I've uploaded to Dropbox several photos (link at bottom of post).

    Here are my observations after playing it:

    1. Intonation at the 12 frets seems darn near perfect.
    2. Plays great up the neck.
    3. Progressively from the fret 7 or 8ish, the notes start to go flat. The closer to the nut, the worse it is.
    4. There is buzzing when playing notes on the first 6 frets.
    5. The back does not appear to be separating.
    6. The only cracks appear to be two very small cracks on each side of the neck joint. However, it's difficult to discern if they're just scratches,

    I've attached two audio clips (link at bottom of post). One is me playing Angelina the Baker in D, which I think emphasizes the flat notes. The other compares the open scales played in first position to the closed scales whose 4th and high octave notes are played on the 12 fret.

    Here are my questions:

    1. Do you agree all the hardware is original? I'm most unsure about the bridge.
    2. Do you think the top has sunk?
    3. Do you agree the frets seems to be in fine condition?
    4. Should I be weary of using medium guage strings?
    5. What are the pros and cons of the smaller frets?
    6. Besides raising the bridge, is there anything else to look for / try to diagnose the string buzzing?
    7. Could the buzzing and flat notes be related?
    8. Do you agree those are cracks on the neck joint? If so, anything to be concerned about given how small they are?
    9. When caring for the mandolin, is there any thing one should do different compared to caring for how a modern, high end mandolin?

    Dropbox link: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/i8uhlg9nb...mgfVoJK0a?dl=0
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by joh; Jul-07-2022 at 12:26am.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

    One more observation: it appears that the first 6 frets are actually a bit larger than the frets up the neck. I've uploaded another photo Perhaps this mandolin had a partial re-fret? Is it possible for frets to be the "wrong size" and cause such intonation and buzzing issues?

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/a67mnojnvf..._0357.png?dl=0

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

    1. The hardware appears to me to be original.

    2. I don't see anything glaring. However, there is a top brace behind the soundhole in oval hole Gibsons that sometimes comes loose, usually at one of the ends. This should be checked. You can push upwards [don't push sideways!!] and see if you can feel any movement, especially at the ends. If you are the least bit nervous about that, bring it to a repair person who has experience with these old Gibsons. If the brace is indeed loose, it is usually an easy repair for a qualified repair person.

    3. They look reasonably good for old frets. But I cannot see if any are heavily grooved, and that can cause intonation problems. And it is apparent to me from your recording that at least one fret is a bit high and is causing the buzz that you are hearing.

    4. If the neck and top are solid, some of these mandolins can handle a maximum of 11-16-26-41. For others, that is too heavy. I have seen some that developed badly warped necks and/or distorted tops from a set that heavy. I prefer a slightly lighter set myself. I make up my own: 10 1/2-14-24-38 or 40. You can try 11-15-25-40 if you want to go heavier. I consider the "standard" 11-16-26-40 or 41 sets to be pushing it.

    5. That's a matter of opinion. Mine is that the original small frets may be interesting from a historical point of view, but that these mandolins play much better with modern wire. I have refretted a number of them with wire with a crown that is .080" wide by .040" high. All of my customers have been pleased with the results. For those that prefer the look of a smaller wire, I have used .053" wide by .037" wide, which is still a bit wider and higher than the original wire.

    6. Raising the bridge might or might not be enough to eliminate the buzzing. If it doesn't, a highly qualified repairman will have to locate and correct any high or uneven frets. Be very selective about who works on the frets. Many repair people will mess up a fret job that could have been saved by grinding all of them too low rather than locating and levelling the high spots, followed by a careful re-crowning procedure. "Don't try it at home, boys and girls."

    7. Possibly. The subject of intonation problems on old Gibsons is complex and I won't go into detail here. The most user-friendly solution to try is to adjust the bridge position to a "middle ground" where the flat notes are not too flat and the 12th fret is not too sharp.

    8. The one on the treble side looks more like a scratch to me, but I can't tell for sure from a computer screen. I don't see anything on the bass side.

    9. Treat it with a little extra TLC. Wipe off after playing, avoid playing it outside in very hot, cool, or humid conditions, and use a humidifier during the winter.

    I don't know where you reside, but it is always a good idea to have a highly qualified repair person who has lots of experience with antique instruments look it over before you put it into use. Gryphon on the west coast has a highly qualified repair staff, Max Girouard has a good reputation in New England, and there are several of us scattered through the southeast who are good with these old instruments.

    Addendum: Yes, I see from the picture you have added that the instrument has had a partial refret. I recommend that you have one of us look the instrument over. The bridge position should be checked, also the nut should be inspected and if necessary, adjusted. It might need some minor fret work. And some careful measurements would be a good idea.

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  5. #4
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    Default Re: Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

    I have a '21 A model mando, in good condition. I recently noticed that the first five to six frets are significantly misplaced, causing intonation problems. Eventually I plan to correct this by filling and recutting those fret slots, but for now I was able to improve the problem by adding a temporary thin shim between the nut and fingerboard end(about .040", the amount those frets are off).

  6. #5
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    Default Re: Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Richard View Post
    I have a '21 A model mando, in good condition. I recently noticed that the first five to six frets are significantly misplaced, causing intonation problems. Eventually I plan to correct this by filling and recutting those fret slots, but for now I was able to improve the problem by adding a temporary thin shim between the nut and fingerboard end(about .040", the amount those frets are off).
    My '22 had the same problem. I shimmed nut back about 1mm and it's been fine for a couple decades. I have found other '22's that had the same problem and were easily fixed the same way. You may want to try a bigger shim and see what it does.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  7. #6
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    Default Re: Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

    I too have had good results on several Gibson instruments by using pops' technique of adding ~1 mm to the nut end of the fingerboard.
    It's an easy fix when it works, and the results can be surprisingly good.

    But not all intonation problems on Gibson have the same causes.
    Whether or not it's the right fix for a particular instrument depends on that instrument.

  8. #7

    Default Re: Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

    Thank you for the very thoughtful and thorough reply!

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    1. The hardware appears to me to be original.

    2. I don't see anything glaring. However, there is a top brace behind the soundhole in oval hole Gibsons that sometimes comes loose, usually at one of the ends. This should be checked. You can push upwards [don't push sideways!!] and see if you can feel any movement, especially at the ends. If you are the least bit nervous about that, bring it to a repair person who has experience with these old Gibsons. If the brace is indeed loose, it is usually an easy repair for a qualified repair person.
    I was able to reach the treble side easily (without taking off the strings), but the bass side does not seem loose.

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    3. They look reasonably good for old frets. But I cannot see if any are heavily grooved, and that can cause intonation problems. And it is apparent to me from your recording that at least one fret is a bit high and is causing the buzz that you are hearing.
    Yes, after playing more, I am fairly convinced this is the cause of buzzing. There is definitely a correlation between the buzzing (and poor intonation) frets and the partial refret..

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    4. If the neck and top are solid, some of these mandolins can handle a maximum of 11-16-26-41. For others, that is too heavy. I have seen some that developed badly warped necks and/or distorted tops from a set that heavy. I prefer a slightly lighter set myself. I make up my own: 10 1/2-14-24-38 or 40. You can try 11-15-25-40 if you want to go heavier. I consider the "standard" 11-16-26-40 or 41 sets to be pushing it.
    Interesting! To get these "non-standard" gauges, do you just buy a medium gauge and small gauge pack of string, mix-n-match, and throw out the unused strings? Or are there brands

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    5. That's a matter of opinion. Mine is that the original small frets may be interesting from a historical point of view, but that these mandolins play much better with modern wire. I have refretted a number of them with wire with a crown that is .080" wide by .040" high. All of my customers have been pleased with the results. For those that prefer the look of a smaller wire, I have used .053" wide by .037" wide, which is still a bit wider and higher than the original wire.
    I've noticed that on both this mandolin and a vintage f4 I played once, hammer ons are a lot louder than on my Northfield Big Mon. I don't know if this is a function of the fret size, the oval vs f-holes, or something else entirely...

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    6. Raising the bridge might or might not be enough to eliminate the buzzing. If it doesn't, a highly qualified repairman will have to locate and correct any high or uneven frets. Be very selective about who works on the frets. Many repair people will mess up a fret job that could have been saved by grinding all of them too low rather than locating and levelling the high spots, followed by a careful re-crowning procedure. "Don't try it at home, boys and girls."

    7. Possibly. The subject of intonation problems on old Gibsons is complex and I won't go into detail here. The most user-friendly solution to try is to adjust the bridge position to a "middle ground" where the flat notes are not too flat and the 12th fret is not too sharp.
    Interesting! I've tested every fret above the re-fret that starts at fret 6. The intonation seems pretty good - at least according to my clip on tuner! So hopefully this indicates that good intonation will be possible across the entire neck once the lower frets are addressed..

    Quote Originally Posted by rcc56 View Post
    8. The one on the treble side looks more like a scratch to me, but I can't tell for sure from a computer screen. I don't see anything on the bass side.

    9. Treat it with a little extra TLC. Wipe off after playing, avoid playing it outside in very hot, cool, or humid conditions, and use a humidifier during the winter.

    I don't know where you reside, but it is always a good idea to have a highly qualified repair person who has lots of experience with antique instruments look it over before you put it into use. Gryphon on the west coast has a highly qualified repair staff, Max Girouard has a good reputation in New England, and there are several of us scattered through the southeast who are good with these old instruments.

    Addendum: Yes, I see from the picture you have added that the instrument has had a partial refret. I recommend that you have one of us look the instrument over. The bridge position should be checked, also the nut should be inspected and if necessary, adjusted. It might need some minor fret work. And some careful measurements would be a good idea.
    You convinced me :-). I am in MA, so I gave Max Girouard a call and will be bringing the mandolin in! I will report back with his findings and work when all is said and done. (I just hope the final cost of purchase and repair is worth it for this mandolin! We will see.. :-))

  9. #8
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    Default Re: Inspecting and caring for a vintage Gibson A

    I haven't seen his work, but Max has a good reputation. He should be able to set up your instrument and advise you on the best course to solve any problems.

    I order individual strings in packs of 6 or 10 at my local store. Individual loop end strings are available in multiple gauges from D'Addario, GHS, and Curt Mangan.
    Places like Elderly and JustStrings carry them also.

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