Looking for recommendations on a ‘20’s Gibson oval A

[Trader Todd]

I think I’m possibly, maybe, sort of (MAS denial) in the market for a 20’s Gibson A oval. Done as much research as I can via old threads and this great article https://www.mandolincafe.com/archive...a/gibsona.html

Like so many, I live in a part of the country where the only instruments I can test drive are new acoustic PAC Rim entry level guitars, large selections of $199.99 FENDER mandolins and a few Craigslist postings for unwanted pointy Jackson electric guitars. Nothing pains me more than buying an instrument (especially vintage) sight and sound unseen, but it is what it is. So here we are.

Budget is $2500-3000. Not fussy about bling, scratches, scuffs and war wounds. Looking for a sound solid player. Happy to spend less if a nice Jr, etc would scratch the itch. What do you all have that you currently love? Those of you that own one, what do you see out there for sale you might buy assuming you possibly, maybe, sort of had $3k burning a hole in you MAS prescription kit? Prices seem to be all over the place and I can’t seem to understand true market value. To my uneducated eye and ear these seem temping https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/191946#191946 https://cartervintage.com/collection...-a-junior-1925

Also please remind me about the buyer beware stuff associated with purchasing 100 year old A - shrinking sinking tops, etc…

Thanks in advance. Will not respond to post recommending that if I just had another $1395 to spend I could get “X” $3K tops, maybe, sort of, possibly.

[Marcus CA]

If you’re okay with a pre-1922 Gibson A, then you should be able to find one for well under $2K, unless that market has skyrocketed in the past few months.

That’s the good news! The bad news is that I would never buy an old 100+-year-old Gibson without playing it first. That’s because I’ve played at least a dozen of those A’s, and tonally, they’re all over the map. I bought just a basic 1921 A in 2009 that I absolutely love after playing a few, and I’ve only played two since then that match its tone.

So, for you, a workaround could be to buy one that on paper will work for you (i.e., no structural problems), and then buy it with a 48-hour approval period. Especially if the mando hasn’t been played much recently, it will need some wake-up time, but after your first hour with it, you’ll know whether you’re in love. You may end up dropping a few hundred bucks in shipping costs with this approach, but you’d still be within your budget.

My only other caveat is that those mandos have a flat fretboard, if that’s a concern for you.

[mandroid]

Happily own 2, 22 A's, 1 rather plain , brown, top edge bound had since the 80's..

the other an A4 , just after the introduction of the Truss Rod. nickel plated TRC ,,

Got it in the 99/00 era..

both have lived near the west coast with little drastic temperature swings & cool marine humidity.

[rcc56]

As a player, teacher, and repairman, I've had my hands [and ears] on dozens of the old oval hole Gibsons over the years.
I cannot single out any year or period where the instruments are "better;" except to say that if anything, I've found more from between 1911 and 1921 that I thought were good.
But I've played some good ones from 1922 - 1932 also.
The best reasons I can recommend for going for post 1922 instruments are if you have a preference for smaller necks and narrower fingerboards, or if you like the look of snakehead pegheads.

Plain A's from the 1910's start at about $1200-$1400. Teens A-4's start at $2200 or so. $3000 is top dollar.

Bear in mind that snakeheads will cost quite a bit more. Plain models usually start at $2000+. A clean A-4 snakehead can cost $6000 or more. Some folks are willing to pay the premium for an A-2Z or A-4 snakehead. Although I've played a couple that were really good, I was never willing to pay the extra $$ for one.

Pete Ostroushko had a 1912 A-4 that was hard to beat. One of my students has a 1921 A-3 that's got something special. I've got a 1917 that I like well enough that I've kept it for 25 years.

My best recommendations are to not limit yourself to a particular year, to only order something being sold with a 48 hour approval period, and to budget a few hundred dollars for a possible re-fret with modern wire, in case you find the original tiny Gibson frets to be less than friendly.

I'll also add that the mandolins built after about 1919 or so sometimes have intonation problems due to out-of-tolerance fret placement, so keep your ears open.

[Servus]

I wouldn't buy any instrument without trying it out first. That especially goes for mandolins. I bought my Gibson A1 from 1916 in the 1990s. The price was low back then. I only bought it because it sounded nice - and still does (sweet and melodic) - and not because it was a Gibson.

Servus

[mandocello8]

If you want an old Gibson, go for it. Back when, I traveled to Mandolin Brothers on Staten Island, played every mandolin
in the store and came out with an old Gibson A4. (A Bruce Weber F-style was 2nd best).

If you get an original-condition old Gibson, be prepared and do budget for major $$$ expenses, sudden or eventual,
as other have already detailed: neck work (worn frets, misplaced frets, neck reinforcement), brace repair or complete
rebracing, top unsinking and re-graduation, etc, etc.

I have gone through all this recently, it was like buying the mandolin again and it was worth every penny to me. The old A4
plays better than it ever played and now it will go for another 100 years no problem. Biggest difficulty was finding the right
person to do the work. (Hi, Jake D.V.!).

Conversely, if you are on a budget and cannot afford sudden expenses, perhaps an old Gibson is not for you.

[Trader Todd]

Thanks for the info and opinions! Wishing I had a store to go visit and test drive a few side by side.

[tiltman]

Sometimes playing before you buy is not possible - which sounds like your situation.
I’ve purchased several vintage instruments online (knock on wood) and all went well.
Sinking top, neck straight, condition/wear of frets, all good things to ask.
And return policy.
Obvious stuff - reputable dealer (support the cafe!), etc.

Go for it - it’ll likely work out.

Kirk

[Cary Fagan]

I went on the same hunt and had 4 different mandolins sent to me. I particularly liked the sound of the early 20s sheraton brown A1s (I think) a lot. But each one ended up having a problem--sinking top, warped neck--despite the owners (store and individuals) saying they were fine. (I'd asked about these very problems in advance.) I had to send them all back at some expense. The stores often charge a fee beyond shippiing. So unless you feel very, very confident of the seller and can return it without charge, I'd be wary of any sight-unseen buys.

[Don Grieser]

I would bet that this one will sound and play better than most vintage ovals and you won't have all the vintage problems. https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/192031#192031 I went for a Pomeroy oval A.

[Jim Garber]

Personally, if you are sticking to vintage Gibson, I would go for a pre-Loar like 1920-21. I have played a bunch of A's and F's in that era and have yet to play one that wasn't a desirable instrument, at least to my taste. You can find one at a reasonable price and if you are concerned about getting stuck you can buy from a dependable dealer who offer approval periods though most of the folks here on the Cafe are pretty dependable and oftne will also allow for a few days to check something out and return it if there is a problem.

That Junior at Carter's looks nicely beaten so I bet it plays well and might be fine if you are not looking for a pristine one. I bet the other snakehead from Bob Page is very nice but obviously at the top of your price range. Once again, you are paying more for a Loar-era mandolin.

[jaycat]

I would bet that this one will sound and play better than most vintage ovals and you won't have all the vintage problems. https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/192031#192031 I went for a Pomeroy oval A.

That's a hot lookin' mando. Big fat frets too.

[penguins0141]

I will vouch for Marcus' statement. If you find one that really sings, then you've found a treasure. It is worth the extra care in the search, and playing it if you can.

[Trader Todd]

Don that Old Wave two point looks interesting. As much as I love "old wood" I can't be bothered with the potential maintenance and headaches. Seems to be a lot of love for those Old Waves. I'm not really familiar with them.

[Jean Andreasen]

It was just dumb luck in my case. I bought my '06 on eBay for less than $1K only because I could return it if I wasn't satisfied. It was found in a Cali closet wrapped in towels. Definitely loved and played in its past life.

Just needed a refret. The fellow who did the work kept commenting on what good shape it was in. Light as a feather with a sweet sound.

I feel honored to be its current steward.

[Billy Packard]

Jumping in! I have a 1923 A2 paddle-head that is incredible. It has the pointy V shaped neck and the wider flat fretboard that ! would ordinarily pass on but once I start playing it nothing seems to bother me.

This is a Loar-era mandolin and with your budget I recommend finding one from those years. Prices seem to be quite varied.

Billy

[keith.rogers]

...
This is a Loar-era mandolin and with your budget I recommend finding one from those years. Prices seem to be quite varied.
...

You ain't just whistlin' Dixie, as they say. The '23 Snakehead just up in the classifieds will set you back probably ~$7k if you pay the asking price and (insured) shipping.

[Eric Platt]

Well, my A Jr. was the first "good" mandolin purchased when I got serious about playing a few years ago. Am quite happy with it and have had a number of players I respect state that it's an excellent sounding instrument. If it were my money, would get that one from Carters.

That said, just spotted this on Reverb and it appears to be a great deal - https://reverb.com/item/59468859-192...on-a4-mandolin NFI and no connection to the store.

[Trader Todd]

Thanks for all the input. I'm still on the hunt. It truly is amazing how many of these 100 year old mandolins have survived. Tons of them listed on Reverb. If only I could hear them in person. I thought about going with something newer (that two point Old Wave in the classifieds is tempting...), however, I seem to be jonesing for some old wood.

[Charlie Bernstein]

All good thoughts above. I'll just add my experience.

After one cheesy and two good mandos, I came around to your way of thinking and thought the right axe for me could be a twenties Gibson oval. I like the sound of round and oval holes, and frills usually leave me cold.

Then, about three years ago, I found a Gibson Junior A snakehead online (either here or at Reverb.com) for $500 shipped. The seller was honest: It was in terrible condition. The top finish and all the hardware were shot. The case was useless.

There was one edge that needed a couple of inches of gluing, and the top, while not sunken, was (and is) slightly flat.

I refinished the top with a rattle can of clear nitro laquer, then bought parts and took them to my mando whisperer: a Cumberland Acoustics bridge, a period correct tailpiece, a nut, a JBB internal pickup, and a Tapastring jack, and a neck heal strap button. I also found a used Canadian TKL hard case. He put it together and threw in a set of tuners (which I'll probably replace some day with some better German machines, but they're okay for now).

It came out great. The luthier was astonished at how loud it is. It's a warm sound, not tinkly or cutting. I love it, and it was a fairly affordable way to end up with my dream mando.

Bottom line: This one's the keeper.

[Marcus CA]

Along with Charlie's story ...

Five years ago at Swannanoa, I met a banjo player, now a good long-distance buddy, whose brother had bought a pre-Loar Gibson A at a garage sale for $50. No, I didn't forget an extra zero. The mando's back was shattered, although probably not by a fireplace poker. Because the top looked so good, and all the pieces of the back seemed to be there, he decided to see if it could be restored. He found a local luthier in North Carolina who charged him $1K to put it back together again. Because he didn't know how to play mando at the time, and because I had told him that I had a similar one, he asked me to try it out. To our surprise, it is one of the few old Gibson A's that sounds as good as mine does, so I called it Lazarus, which he has done ever since.

[Charles E.]

I would bet that this one will sound and play better than most vintage ovals and you won't have all the vintage problems. https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/192031#192031 I went for a Pomeroy oval A.

A-jr style Pomeroy in the classifieds...

https://www.mandolincafe.com/ads/188470#188470

NFI

[Trader Todd]

I guess they call it a Mandolin Acquisition Syndrome because sometimes you might acquire more than one at a time. 1921 A Jr & 1924 A Jr. Do you think my wife would notice that I got two? They look awfully similar and more so to the untrained eye. I think I can keep one on the rack and one in the case, as long as I can prove the pick guard is removable, she’ll be none the wiser. Maybe I should get a ‘22 & ‘23 A Jr just to keep things in balance?

I’m not keeping both. Since I was unable try before I buy or pick to make my wife sick, I pulled the trigger on these two and gave myself a weekend to strum and hum.

Let the battle begin. Results posted Monday.

[Trader Todd]

1921 Gibson A Jr Paddle Head for the win!

The ‘24 snakehead arrived first and was in near mint condition for a nearly 100 year old instrument. It had newish strings and once it was tuned, I was amazed at how well it played, easy action, strong volume and projection and good intonation for as far up the neck as I'll ever get. Just like I’d been told the neck was slim and easy to play. I figured this one had to be a keeper.

Then the '21 paddle head arrived the next day. It looked more loved and “played in” also with newish strings comparable to what was on the snakehead. Once it was tuned up, it sounded great at first strum! Great action, good intonation, stayed in tune and was shouting proudly and loudly with regards to it’s volume and projection. Single note lines were more defined and sweeter compared to the snake. "It" had that VIBE (old wood in the hood). A well attacked open two finger G chord and the instrument just vibrated, resonated, projected and SUSTAINED (I may never play an F-hole again...). I didn’t really notice nor was bothered with the difference in the chunkier neck compared to the snake immediately. Flat fret board on either was also a non issue for me. It wasn’t until I A/B’d them back to back that I really noticed a difference in the neck profiles. The ‘21 paddle head neck and overall vibe reminded me of a buddy's old Stradolin I use to play when I first picked up the 8 strings many moons ago, but with a warmer sweeter tone. Within 10 minutes I knew this was the keeper between the two.

My advice to the player that is reading this archived post who is in the same situation as I was is that everyting you read here on the cafe holds true - Rule #1 don’t let the Paddle head vs. Loar Era Snakehead sway your decision. There are winners in either era but according to research and opinions here on the Cafe there seems to be a lot of love for the twenty-something paddles and I am a believer. Try to play at least two and keep the better one. As mentioned by many before me, tonally they are all over the board.

While I’ll never know if this is one of the best sounding vintage Gibson A's or a mediocre one, all I know is that it has the tone, playability and old soul, old wood energy I was seeking. To me the adjectives used to describe tone never made much sense. All I know is I found the open, airy and sustainy sound I was looking for. Does that mean "tubby"? I don't know. I like to call it the Norman and Nancy Blake "Natasha's Waltz" album sound.

Did I mention it is a 101 years old? I can only imagine the front porches, parlors, camp fires, square dances and cultural changes it has seen and heard in 101 years.

My mother passed away a little over a year ago and left behind a cool vintage collection of bakelite jewelry which I pawned off on eBay to sponser the acquisition of this new family heirloom (hope my son learns a few two finger chords), so I’ve decided to name it HannAJr after my mom, Hannah.

The other warm and fuzzy about this deal is that I watched a few A's come and go in the classifieds and Reverb and while I was bummed about losing a few, I was offered an amazing purchase price on this mandolin, right here on The Cafe classifieds by a seller in our community. It was considerably more affordable than the snakehead. That said I wouldn’t have minded paying more for the “Loar Era” snakehead based on it’s nearly mint condition, the “Loar Era” mystic and narrowor neck if it had "that sound" but the ‘21 just vibrated, sustained, growled (with echo) and came to life.

I bet if someone played that snake hard for a few good months it would wake up a bit and possibly outshine the ‘21 - I don't have that kind of time to retrain old wood. It was in near mint condition and strummed 8 string chords rang out sweeter and louder than the paddle head. I'm guessing the snake may have sat under a bed for 72.6 years. It wasn't registered on the archive.

The point is, if you have ever considered a vintage A oval hole Gibson but haven’t got one, go for it!

Thanks a million to all that contributed to this thread you wise old mandolin nerds.