Identifying an old unlabeled mandolin

[SDimis]

Hello to all
I purchased an old , bowl back , low grade mandolin couple of days ago
The reason of purchasing this unbranded mandolin is that the mandolin’s pickguard decoration and bridge matches pickguard decoration and bridge used by Anastasios Stathopoulos ( founder of House of Stathopoulos / Epiphone ) Greek bouzoukia

The 1913 A Stathopoulos catalogue doesn’t show a mandolin with these characteristics . Instead , in the catalogue a Greek bouzouki model 141 carry the same elements

As much as I tried to find the same pickguard decoration to other mandolins and manufactures, I had no luck

Have you seen the same pickguard as the one on the photos ( which will follow as I do not know how someone can upload photos in this forum ) on other vintage mandolins ?

Thank you very much for your info

[SDimis]

[SDimis]

Top : decoration of mandolin / bottom : decoration of Greek bouzouki A Stathopoulo 1911 model 141



Top : bridge of mandolin / bottom : bridge of Stathopoulos bouzouki exhibition in Music museum of NY

[SDimis]

Stathopoulos catalogue and bouzouki 1911 model 141

[NickR]

That crown does look like the crown used by the Greek royal family120 odd years ago and that may just be a coincidence but it could be why it was used by Stathopoulos. As the Greek royal family was the Danish Glucksburg family, the shape of the crown was the same as Denmark- as seen on the Carlsberg label.

[Richard500]

Decorations, especially pickguards with inlay, are often supplied by third party specialists and can’t be used for specific instrument identification. The bridge is possibly also generic. Hopefully someone here can be more helpful with a maker, or at least a country of origin. Photos of the tuners also helpful.

[SDimis]

@NickR

Thank you Nick
I think I have decoded why A Stahopoulos used for his bouzouki instruments two powerful designs
The one with the crown and the shields, and the one with the eagle and the stars
Here is my research:

http://memoriesoftheinnocentage.blog...s-designs.html

The crown and the shields used (as far as I know) solely by A Stathopoulos
Its weird how the same design ended up as a pickguard decoration on the mandolin in discussion

Stathopoulos was selling low grade mandolins (from other luthiers ) , but also he was constructing high end mandolins himself
The above mandolin in discussion "fits" to the lower grade mandolins he was selling from other makers, but doesn't "fit" to the quality of Stathopoulos mandolins

[SDimis]

@Richard 500

Hello Richard
I totally agree that< pickguard suppliers were giving same pickguards to more than one luthiers. Pickguard decoration usually is not an evidence for identification of maker But this one ( crown and shields) I have nt seen it anywhere else apart from Stathopoulos workshop

As for the tuners good call
Here is the photo
Brass with nickel /chrome/ or aluminum plated knobs (I do not know which is )
From a research Epiphone after 1925-30s use to install tuners with nickel, chrome, gold plated knobs (if that says something and is relevant )

[NickR]

They are worm over gear which usually suggests no earlier than the mid 1920s.

[SDimis]

Hello NickR

I think you are mistaken the photograph
When the worm ( the metal rod/axis ) is closer to the small nut of the instrument and then (above the worm) is the gear, then we are talking about the older system ( prior to 1920)- This mandolin has the old system
The new system is when the gear comes first (closer to the small nut of the instrument ) and then the worm.

[Ray(T)]

I have to agree with NickR. Those are “worm over” tuners which suggests mid-20s or later. Gibson, by way of example, started using worm over tuners circa 1924.

[MikeEdgerton]

The tuners appear to have been installed on the wrong sides. They are worm under tuners installed upside down.

[Steve 2E]

The experts have me confused. I'm just seeing worm under tuners that seem to be installed correctly.

[SDimis]

Good morning to all
I am also confused Steve
Accordingly to my luthier worm under( worm first) and then above the gear is the old system

Please clarify
To my knowledge the top tuners of the photograph are the old style ( the middle / center top, is the mandolin in discussion )

[MikeEdgerton]

Never mind, I'm thinking the narrow side of that picture was the top, I just realized I'm looking at a paddle head with snake head on my mind.

[Ray(T)]

Well spotted Mike - I’ve done exactly the same; they are worm under.

(The reason we’ve both made the same mistake is because we’re used to looking at the rear of pegheads from a “playing” perspective - i.e. you don’t usually turn a mandolin upside down to look at the tuners so the rest of the neck is usually to the right.)

[NickR]

I made the same mistake as well as and for the same reason!

[SDimis]

All right thank you all for the clarifications
So now that we have cleared up the misunderstanding with the tuners and since this mandolin has the old style before 1920s, do we have any guess regarding the maker ?

I must have looked more than 300 old bowl back mandolins ( made in US) and I still haven’t come across the pick guard design of the crown and the shields

Then, I turned into the tailpiece
Trying to see which manufacturer / luthier was using this style of tailpiece
Again , I know that apart from few makers with distinguishing tailpieces ( Lyon and Healy, Washburn , Vega etc) tailpiece is not an evidence of maker’s identification … but since I am running out of options, I thought to dive into another search regarding this time the tailpiece

Same tailpiece I found in a few Oscar Schmidt 1900s bowlback mandolins
I did a research on that maker trying to find similar pickguard decoration without any luck

[Jim Garber]

In general it is not the pickguard inlays that are markers for the makers but more likely the shapes of the pickguards. In addition to the pg shape, when attempting to ID a bowlback I look at the shape of the peghead and the shape of the body and the manner in which the ribs are assembled including the shape of the apron that goes over the ribs of the bowl.

As for the tailpieces, they too were usually supplied by other companies. The one on yours is the same shape as those made by Luigi Ricca shop in NYC but without the LR initials. I have seen them on other brands but other aspects of your mandolin do not resemble Ricca mandolins.

I will take a further look and see if I can come close to a guess on who made this one.

[SDimis]

Thank you So much Jim
The shape of the pickguard also matches the shape of the pickguard of Anastasios Stathopoulos bouzoukia (but not as tall as the one for the the Greek bouzouki - maybe due to the round sound hole which bouzouki has, comparing to oval sound hole of mandolin )

I will wait for the outcome of your research

[SDimis]

Also for your information here are in 1913 the mandolins which Stathopoulos has in his catalogue
The first ones are not his creations and lower end mandolins
The one in discussion has some characteristics as the 3401 model with 9 staves and curved headstock top


And here are the higher-end mandolins created by Stathopoulos

[ΤΡΑΠΥΡΙΑΝΟΣ]

Hi Spyros. It isn't a stathopoulo mandolin. Maybe a crown like this one.