Let's talk about Virzi's

[Verne Andru]

From what I understand a Virzi is some wood put inside a mandolin with the intent of improving tone, but I could be wrong (which is why I'm posting this).

I've read stories about people who have taken expensive mandolins apart to install them and others that have taken expensive mandolins apart to remove them. The inclusion of some additional wood inside what is basically a drum seems counter-intuitive to improving vibrations, but what do I know?

It seems Jim Garber recently acquired a Snakehead with one (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...latey-Goodness) so maybe he can chime in.

Do they work as advertised or are they a waste of a good mandolin?

[sunburst]

"Let's talk about Virzi's"

We don't really have to, do we??

If nothing else, they provide mandophiles with hour and hours of controversy, and the arguments and disagreements show no signs of dissipating.

[dhergert]

I think it's an interesting idea, but how can someone judge just the Virzi difference? Two identical looking mandolins can still sound very different due to subtle variables in the wood and build. Since installing a Virzi requires either doing so before the finish of the instrument, or that the back or the top be taken off after the build was complete, it changes everything.

I've heard a few instruments with Virzi or Virzi-like components and some sound remarkably good, while some just sounded good. I have no idea what other setup tweaks were made to them, plus the touch of each player makes a difference.

Again, how can someone judge?

[Verne Andru]

I was wondering because Jim appears to now have 2 Snakeheads with the latest outfitted with a Virzi. In his post I linked he notes his new mando with the Virzi doesn't seem to have the tone of the other, so I was curious to hear his and other's impressions.

They appear to be snake-oil from what I've read but someone with first-hand experience could certainly help elucidate us.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

Dec. 17th 2003 (Thread: "Loar Picture of the Day") Darryl Wolfe, experienced player and expert on vintage F5s, wrote this:
... just a little notch at the end of the feet so that the feet can rest against the side of the tone bars. That part usually comes out clean, but the feet usually leave a bit of wood on the top just inside the tone bars on both sides. There is also a little pin into the third foot that was used to locate it and it usually ends up staying in the top.
DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU ARE FAINT OF HEART

I remove the Virzi with a standard black coat hanger. You put a tight radius 180 degree bend one the end with about a 1/2" inch leg and 1/8" gap. You file the inside radius of the gap as sharp as possible. The rest is fairly obvious..going in the end pin hole..you hook it around the disc and split the grain in about 3 or 4 places. The old spruce splits very easy and usually detaches from the legs....fish these out the f-hole. The legs come off by the same method and usually come out in one piece. A bent screw driver is some times need to push the leg back after you pull on it...like rocking it until it detaches from the little pin. Most will glue back together almost invisibly..such as the one in the picture and:
Same result with all three that I have done. Much more volume, more focused sound..not a lot of tonal change..and an easier feel to the strings.

One of them really sounded sick before the surgery. It had a queer hollow humming overtone inside, like the sound was there but couldn't get out (almost like the Virzi was loose and humming) It sounded fine afterwards

No difference noticed between ones that never had a Virzi

[Hendrik Ahrend]

You may also want to check this thread out:https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...hat-does-it-do
There are several more threads on the Virzi topic.
Agreement seems to be that there are some very good sounding Virzi instruments – which, of course, is no proof that it's because of the Virzi or that the Virzi does anything desirable at all.

[Jeff Mando]

We don't really have to, do we??

[Verne Andru]

Dec. 17th 2003 (Thread: "Loar Picture of the Day") Darryl Wolfe, experienced player and expert on vintage F5s, wrote this:
... just a little notch at the end of the feet so that the feet can rest against the side of the tone bars. That part usually comes out clean, but the feet usually leave a bit of wood on the top just inside the tone bars on both sides. There is also a little pin into the third foot that was used to locate it and it usually ends up staying in the top.
DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU ARE FAINT OF HEART

I remove the Virzi with a standard black coat hanger. You put a tight radius 180 degree bend one the end with about a 1/2" inch leg and 1/8" gap. You file the inside radius of the gap as sharp as possible. The rest is fairly obvious..going in the end pin hole..you hook it around the disc and split the grain in about 3 or 4 places. The old spruce splits very easy and usually detaches from the legs....fish these out the f-hole. The legs come off by the same method and usually come out in one piece. A bent screw driver is some times need to push the leg back after you pull on it...like rocking it until it detaches from the little pin. Most will glue back together almost invisibly..such as the one in the picture and:
Same result with all three that I have done. Much more volume, more focused sound..not a lot of tonal change..and an easier feel to the strings.

One of them really sounded sick before the surgery. It had a queer hollow humming overtone inside, like the sound was there but couldn't get out (almost like the Virzi was loose and humming) It sounded fine afterwards

No difference noticed between ones that never had a Virzi

Thanks. I was thinking it would be easier to remove, especially from an oval hole, than install.

The reason I bring it up is not everyone has been party to these discussions before. A lot of new people have come to mandolin in recent years. Sorry if it bores the old folks but you can always take a pass on a thread if it doesn't float your boat.

Still interested in hearing Jim's opinion now that he has one with and another without.

[MikeEdgerton]

Verne, if you want to delve deeper into the subject take a quick glance through these threads. There are a few past discussions.

[Verne Andru]

Verne, if you want to delve deeper into the subject take a quick glance through these threads. There are a few past discussions.

Thanks Mike. Part of the reason I bring this up is I didn't want to hijack Jim's NMD thread.

He notes his new snakehead is in immaculate condition (suggesting it hasn't been played much), has a Virzi installed and doesn't sound very good so may end up being a wall-hanger (again).

That seems a shame to me especially if the sole reason is the Virzi.

Mandolins are meant to be played IMHO so this is a bit of a public-service thread, hence broaching the topic.

[mandroid]

It seeme even identical looking Mandolins can , due to being wood & made by human hands, have different sounds..

Is it like the whizzer cone put in a speaker?

[Richard500]

The whizzer is considerably better understood and has a fairly valid function.

[MontanaMatt]

I can’t recall the details of the removable top test instrument…if I remember, it was to test different tops on a identical back…
Perhaps that rig was virzi tested? Or should/could be.

[Charles E.]

[oldwave maker]

All kidding aside, they make swell bolo ties!

[Jim Garber]

Thanks Mike. Part of the reason I bring this up is I didn't want to hijack Jim's NMD thread.

He notes his new snakehead is in immaculate condition (suggesting it hasn't been played much), has a Virzi installed and doesn't sound very good so may end up being a wall-hanger (again).

That seems a shame to me especially if the sole reason is the Virzi.

Mandolins are meant to be played IMHO so this is a bit of a public-service thread, hence broaching the topic.

I was away today and missed the start of this thread. Actually was playing music believe it or not!

Anyway, I didn’t buy that mandolin for the Virzi. I would have bought it with or without. I also thought it was interesting that it had one. I have played a lovely Loar F-5 from the same year with a Virzi and it sounded very nice. I know I sounded a bit disappointed but the tone of this mandolin is very nice. And it is fun to play. I haven’t a-b’ed it with my 23 A-2 but I am guessing that they are different but both good sounding instruments. This A-4 though is no wall hanger.

It is very hard to tell what this mandolin sounds like without a Virzi unless I took it out then re-installed it. I will not be doing that ever. Sorry to say. If nothing else, to me it is a fascinating curiosity from that era and I am not sorry I bought this beauty. I was playing it today. It is a lovely one.

As for Virzis: As Sunburst noted there are those who hate them and those whom swear they are wonderful. I certainly would not de-virzify this mandolin. That would be against my mando-religion. Frankly the Virzi comes from a long line of contraptions including double soundboards and other doodads throughout instrument history.

I checked patents for the Tone reducer and all were intended originally for violins but the patents mention use on other stringed instruments. The violin Virzis in the patents seem to extend the length of the top whereas the Virzis in my A-4 only is a disc more or less under the bridge area. I assume that Loar worked with the Virzis to adapt their invention to Gibson’s instruments. I think there is probably some more info than I know about—I haven’t had much time to look in my usual sources for details.

If nothing else I would imagine that some of the overtones normally produced in a Virzi-less mandolin would be subtly different from those with one. Whether that appeals to your ears or not is subjective. I don’t think it would really deaden the sound though such non-fans as Walter Kaye Bauer might have say that much: I believe it was he who first called the Tone Reducers.

For those interested here are all the non-Loar signed Virzi instruments listed in the Mandolin Archive: http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/...l?virzi_noloar

And here are the Loar-signed ones: http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/...olins.pl?virzi

[Jim Garber]

All kidding aside, they make swell bolo ties!

You do get some interesting overtones from your chest cavity, I would guess. All kidding inside.

- - - Updated - - -

I can’t recall the details of the removable top test instrument…if I remember, it was to test different tops on a identical back…
Perhaps that rig was virzi tested? Or should/could be.

Was that from Dr. Cohen? I know he had a mandolin like that he used for testing his own theories.

[pheffernan]

Do they work as advertised or are they a waste of a good mandolin?

[sunburst]

...Was that from Dr. Cohen?...

Perhaps it was. He did install a "virzi-thingie" (sp?) in his test mule. Holography didn't show much difference with or without, as I recall, other than a slight lowering of the frequency of at least one top mode ('side to side rocking mode'), possibly from "swinging' the extra mass of the Virzi from side to side or something like that. I also think I recall him saying he didn't hear any particular difference in the sound of the mandolin with and without.

[Jim Garber]

Just for everyone’s information those are two modern mandolins made by Mike Black. Wonderful to have that comparison. To my ears TBH they both sound great though they are different.

[pheffernan]

Just for everyone’s information those are two modern mandolins made by Mike Black. Wonderful to have that comparison. To my ears TBH they both sound great though they are different.

How would you describe the difference?

[TheMandoKit]

All kidding aside, they make swell bolo ties!

OK, is it weird that I think I want one of these? (Bill, you have my address... )

[HoGo]

From what I read about sound radiation of violins, the soundholes emit only lower frequencies dominated by lower body/air modes and most upper frequencies from 1000Hz or so radiate directly from outside surfaces of plates. The Virzi thing is inside and with those funny C holes with feet glued across they just cannot vibrate in many appreciable ways and the body cavity air resonances will totally overwhelm any output from virzi.
Virzi advertised for violins as well and even had some big names on ads (I believe Heifetz or one of the greats of the era) but they ended just like hundreds of other patented devices... On violins they were easy to retrofit and see if they work so if they had some positive impact we would still be seeing them used....
You can stick a chunk of clay of the same weight as Virzi on your bridge and see what it would do to the tone.

[j. condino]

Here is a photo of the frisbee sized Virzi in my 1923 Gibson Harp guitar, and two violin models.

I've seen a couple of them in old pianos that were about three foot long.

My favorite part of the harp guitar photo is that the 100 year old red spruce has the same color and dryness as my torrefied red spruce; it goes all the way through the wood too, not just surface oxidation.

The Virzi is an interesting distraction in the 20th century mandolin. I generally find it better to focus on building a great, very responsive instrument with a traditional design first than too get too distracted with "the add on disease". You can make an overbuilt 13 pound mandolin and no matter how great a Virzi you install, it will still be an overbuilt 13 pound mandolin. Once you get to the threshold of responsiveness, that is when the little details stand out and make a big difference.

[Tavy]

From what I read about sound radiation of violins, the soundholes emit only lower frequencies dominated by lower body/air modes and most upper frequencies from 1000Hz or so radiate directly from outside surfaces of plates. The Virzi thing is inside and with those funny C holes with feet glued across they just cannot vibrate in many appreciable ways and the body cavity air resonances will totally overwhelm any output from virzi.
Virzi advertised for violins as well and even had some big names on ads (I believe Heifetz or one of the greats of the era) but they ended just like hundreds of other patented devices... On violins they were easy to retrofit and see if they work so if they had some positive impact we would still be seeing them used....
You can stick a chunk of clay of the same weight as Virzi on your bridge and see what it would do to the tone.

I respectfully disagree (though this doesn't necessarily mean they are a good thing). A Virzi, along with many other similar contraptions (second sound boards in Ceccherini's spring to mind) will vibrate. In fact vibrate a heck of lot. A weight added to the top, is just that, a dead weight. They have some similar effects in that they both change the frequencies of the top modes by a similar amount, but the effect of a Virzi and similar mods, is to suck energy out of the top (at the Virzi's resonant frequencies) and then if you're lucky, give it back again over time. In fact the mechanical effect is very similar to a plate reverb. You can hear that in the tone of the instrument too, they "zing".

Now whether you like the effect is highly subjective, I can certainly imagine that there are some bad/unfortunate implementations which just plain suck energy out and dissipate it all as heat. Those instruments will be quiet, but worse than that, they'll have a whole bunch of frequencies missing from their output and just sound plain odd. I did experiment with a Virzi-like thingamy in one of my early builds, and did like the effect, but ultimately came to the conclusion that there were many other factors that have a bigger more positive effect on tone. I also really like the old Ceccherini's with their double-tops, but again, I suspect there are other more important build-quality issues that would have a bigger impact on tone. And of course if volume is your primary concern, then putting anything like a Virzi inside is just plain silly - they can only ever remove energy, and don't in and of themselves create sound.

Yet none the less, I still have a soft spot for the idea