Wrapping strings around tuners too many times restringing?

[Dave Hulse]

I posted Roger's stringing method in response to the original post after it came with a set of his strings I had bought. It uses the fewest wraps that I have tried. I've had 2 to 6 and never had a problem with slipping or breakage. I am a mechanical engineer but have not thought to investigate string tension around a tuning post.

[wreded]

CES,
I'm not an engineer of any type or kind, I only know what has worked for me.
3-4 windings on plain strings and 1 or 2 on wrapped strings has worked for me for going on 40 years.
When I first started on guitar I had several breakages at the tuning post, since doing things this way the only 1 or 2 breakages I've experienced have been at the bridge. I suspect old strings, but can't really remember.
That being said, I'd recommend at least giving it a try.
Taking the strings is simple, detune grab the string at a convenient place and reverse wind the string from the post. Usually comes off looking like Arby's fries and no harm to anyone.

Dave

[Richard500]

Ok, engineers and bystanders, this is the assignment. It’s a calculus problem. Assume the coefficient of friction is constant: maybe 0.2 for steel on steel. The initial tension is about 20 lbs. Over the total length of the wraps, the tension decreases by the amount of the frictional force at each point. Plot results for one to four turns around the post.
For everyone else, yes, the string tension is maximum where the string exits the post, and decreases as it is opposed by friction, which decreases since the force between the string and post decreases. So, by the time you get to the hole in the post, the string has essentially no tension, and is unlikely to break there. Winches are another example - the tail end of a rope or cable doesn’t need to be attached at all, even for very few turns.

[CES]

Ok, engineers and bystanders, this is the assignment. It’s a calculus problem. Assume the coefficient of friction is constant: maybe 0.2 for steel on steel. The initial tension is about 20 lbs. Over the total length of the wraps, the tension decreases by the amount of the frictional force at each point. Plot results for one to four turns around the post.
For everyone else, yes, the string tension is maximum where the string exits the post, and decreases as it is opposed by friction, which decreases since the force between the string and post decreases. So, by the time you get to the hole in the post, the string has essentially no tension, and is unlikely to break there. Winches are another example - the tail end of a rope or cable doesn’t need to be attached at all, even for very few turns.

OK, that analogy makes sense to me, and I readily admit I was thinking about the tuned string’s pressure in this case incorrectly. Appreciate the redirection. But does 2 wraps vs 4 really make a difference? 3 vs 6? (This is totally a mental exercise at this point, as we all seem to have found formulas that work for us…I’ve only been playing for 20 years or so, but have used both approaches throughout the years without issues with breakage or detuning either way).

Also, in thinking about it, the few string breaks I’ve had were with older strings and all occurred on the nut side of the locks. And I don’t think I’ve had one since switching to my current method with less wraps. Of course, my day job pays better now than it did 15-20 years ago so I don’t ride strings nearly as long as I used to, I have better mandolins with higher quality tuners now, and am using better quality strings as opposed to the cheapest I could find (with different alloys), so there are far too many variables to make any true correlation between the method change and decreased breakage.

I love you guys/gals! But I think it’s time to go play a little and stop thinking so much on this Sunday evening, lol…

[keith.rogers]

OK, that analogy makes sense to me, and I readily admit I was thinking about the tuned string’s pressure in this case incorrectly. Appreciate the redirection. But does 2 wraps vs 4 really make a difference? 3 vs 6? ...

The short answer is, I suspect, "it depends."

As suggested, the coefficient of friction is one of the factors/coefficients in the equation, and like many physics problem, it has something with an exponent somewhere, so the tension at the last/top wrap will be less, maybe even measurably/effectively zero, but never technically zero because it's like that "going half the remaining distance each time" [you approach something]. A polished steel string on a polished steel post will have a lower coefficient than a round-wrapped bronze string and a poorly machined post, so the first would benefit from extra wraps, and the latter, probably not. My guess (observation?) is, you put the same strings on the same mandolin enough times, then you "know" how many wraps is the right number to reduce the probability of a problem to zero. But, that's your strings on your mandolin(s).

[EdHanrahan]

You don’t end up with 6 or 7 wraps ... because there’s not much slack to take out like with the OP’s initially described method.

Okay, that makes sense. THANKS!

[Bacfire]

Someone taught me Simonoff's technique 30+ years ago and I've used it since then with no problems. Usually two wraps or so on the wound strings, three on the plain. It was taught to me as the "Monroe method". Maybe that's why I liked it so much.

[Hendrik Ahrend]

OK, tell us how you get them off again without using wire cutters?

IMHO best post in this thread; spot on!

[Dave Hanson]

Put the string through the post, bend it upright and trap it with the first turn, that's it, plain strings may need 2 turns.

Dave H

[Joed]

It might be a scientific study by the marketing department, but a selling point for the new style of guitar tuners that grip the string is that wraps are bad for staying in tune and provide some slack.

[John Bertotti]

Honestly why does this matter. I’m in the camp the fewer then better. I have had less than a turn before with no issues. I prefer about 1-1.5 it works for me. Do what works for you. If you have breakage and or tuning instability do it different.