Is is possible to increase neck mass by buiding it up somehow?

[Paul Statman]

It's taken me a while to post this here, because I do risk sounding crazy (or worse), I know, so please be kind to this fool. This is an odd question I'm throwing out there, but rather than replace the instrument or even replace the neck with 1+1/8" nut, but too thin of vee profile (which would be a huge undertaking) after some years, I now wonder if this may be feasible alternative.
If it is, then how, and with what material/s? I imagine needing to cut back/reshape the neck to under the fretboard to accommodate the addition of wood or other material. Perhaps marine epoxy?
Thanks for any input.

[Richard500]

Not sure about what you want. More mass, fatter profile, different nut width? Certainly simply adding bulk to it can be anything you like the feel of…wood, plastic, shag carpet….

[j. condino]

You are only limited by your imagination, your wallet, and finding someone skilled & patient enough to execute the crazy $#!% you dream up...!

[rcc56]

Dick Powell and Chris Bozung have converted 4 string plectrum banjo necks to 5 string necks by removing the fingerboard, adding wood to either the sides or the center of the neck, and adding wood to the side of the fingerboard. They are both highly experienced workers. It's a heck of a lot of difficult work, and because of the size of a mandolin neck, I don't believe that it would be practical to do on a mandolin. Chris only did one, converting an original Gibson flathead plectrum [a very desirable instrument] to a 5 string. I saw the instrument, and his work was wonderful, but he reportedly said that he would not do another one.

I suppose the best way to do it on a mandolin would be to pull the fingerboard, pull the neck, remove the truss rod, slice the neck in half, add wood to the center of the neck, rout a new truss rod channel, re-install the rod, plug the tuner holes, re-shape the peghead, replace the peghead overlay and inlays, install another overlay on the back side of the head to cover the plugged holes, redrill it to accept the tuners, replace the fingerboard or add wood to its outer edges, reglue the fingerboard, re-fret it, refinish the neck, re-cut the dovetail and reinstall the neck, make a new nut, etc. etc.

It would be far less work to re-neck the instrument.

[Paul Statman]

Not sure about what you want. More mass, fatter profile, different nut width? Certainly simply adding bulk to it can be anything you like the feel of…wood, plastic, shag carpet….

More mass to a fatter vee profile. Keeping the fretboard as is, adding more 'meat' for the hand. Shaping/fitting with marine epoxy or similar would be easiest, I imagine. Perhaps I'm overthinking this, but I'm not confident about the possible weight loading with this material. Plastic and shag carpet don't appeal so much, and shaping new wood to the exact shape so that both pieces match exactly seems a rather daunting prospect.

[Jim Garber]

I’m assuming you are deeply in love with this mandolin and everything about it except the neck? If, so, I would think it might be easier for someone to replace the neck altogether to your preferred specifications. Of course, the other alternative is to leave it as-is, sell it to someone who prefer as that profile and then replace it with something you absolutely love. It sounds from rcc56’s comments that otherwise it is a major undertaking maybe even more major than just replacing the neck. Or am I misunderstanding what you are asking?

[rcc56]

I'd call the epoxy idea a no-go.

If it hasn't got a truss rod, you could take enough wood off the back of the neck to give you a wider base to work with, flatten it to accept a new piece of wood big enough to give you the desired profile, carve it to shape, and apply a finish to the new wood. Blending the new wood into the existing heel would take some doing.

If it's got a truss rod, it will be in the way of any attempt to add wood to the existing neck, even if you maintain the same fingerboard width and just flatten the back of the neck and add enough new wood to get your desired profile. I suppose that it might[??] be theoretically possible to do without removing the fingerboard and the rod, but it would be a heckuva lot of difficult work.

I suppose you could contact Dick Powell and see if he would take the job and what he would charge, if he's still working.

Instead, I suggest finding a nice new piece of wood and carving away everything that doesn't look like a mandolin neck. If you're really good, there are ways to save and re-use the original fingerboard and possibly the peghead overlay. If you were to make a replacement neck, you wouldn't have to be fastidious about pulling the old one without damaging the tenon-- you could just cut it out if necessary.

[Paul Statman]

I suppose the best way to do it on a mandolin would be to pull the fingerboard, pull the neck, remove the truss rod, slice the neck in half, add wood to the center of the neck, rout a new truss rod channel, re-install the rod, plug the tuner holes, re-shape the peghead, replace the peghead overlay and inlays, install another overlay on the back side of the head to cover the plugged holes, redrill it to accept the tuners, replace the fingerboard or add wood to its outer edges, reglue the fingerboard, re-fret it, refinish the neck, re-cut the dovetail and reinstall the neck, make a new nut, etc. etc.

It would be far less work to re-neck the instrument.

Nah-yeah-nah...That sounds like a huge project! I'm not looking to increase the width. Just the depth would be fine, leaving the fretboard untouched. If I had the tools/equipment, I'd likely cut the neck to a smaller square profile, and fashion a 'female' to fit over it. Something like this.

[rcc56]

The difficulties would be blending in the new wood at the volute and heel, and the truss rod.

If you were to find it necessary to square it off, I would add two L shaped pieces rather than one piece with a channel cut out of the center. It would be easier to get a good fit that way. I think that the fingerboard would still have to come off to do the job.

I'd still rather fit a new neck. It could be done with hand tools if necessary.

If this is a valuable instrument, I would leave it alone, sell it, and look for another instrument that had a neck that fits your hand better.

[Eric Oliver]

Not sure but didn't older instruments laminate fancy wood over bland, but stable, core for the necks? Seems like you could come up with a process of adding sheets, curing and then reshaping?

[Paul Statman]

I’m assuming you are deeply in love with this mandolin and everything about it except the neck? If, so, I would think it might be easier for someone to replace the neck altogether to your preferred specifications. Of course, the other alternative is to leave it as-is, sell it to someone who prefer as that profile and then replace it with something you absolutely love. It sounds from rcc56’s comments that otherwise it is a major undertaking maybe even more major than just replacing the neck. Or am I misunderstanding what you are asking?

Yes, Jim. I am deeply in love with this (F5 with a truss-rod) mandolin, or I would have parted with it. I haven't found anything to 'replace' it with, as nothing else I've found sounds this good to my ears that wasn't built in the '20's with 2 labels and lots of zeros. As it hurts my left hand to play it for more than short spells, I have acquired another for my main, go-to mandolin. What park of ball would the cost be to replace such a neck, do you think?

[Paul Statman]

The difficulties would be blending in the new wood at the volute and heel, and the truss rod.

If you were to find it necessary to square it off, I would add two L shaped pieces rather than one piece with a channel cut out of the center. It would be easier to get a good fit that way. I think that the fingerboard would still have to come off to do the job.

I'd still rather fit a new neck. It could be done with hand tools if necessary.

If this is a valuable instrument, I would leave it alone, sell it, and look for another instrument that had a neck that fits your hand better.

Aha! I like your thinking, there. Two or three straight strips shaped would be easier than a channel, indeed. It is a custom built valuable instrument. If I weren't so loath to part with its voice, I'd have traded it by now. I have purchased and sold several with a view to replacing it, but nothing else comes close enough, hence my ridiculous quest...

[Paul Statman]

Thanks so much to everyone for the constructive responses so far. I won't be tackling a neck removal myself, as I don't have the workspace and tools. Otherwise I think I'd have a go at that. I don't think anyone local would tackle it, and I already asked Collings a few years back. They could not take it on.

[rcc56]

I get it. If it's a Collings, you could see if they're willing to sell you a roughed out neck and have one of the Northern California shops install and finish it for you. I'm thinking of Gryphon or Alan Perlman. There's also a fellow by the name of Dennis Berck who has a good reputation. Ditto if it was built by an overseas builder.

If that won't go, I'm sure there's someone on the west coast who can build a neck from scratch. Perhaps you could at least get the original builder to sell you a new peghead overlay for the new builder to use for the job.

If you can't find someone on the west coast, I would check with Chris Bozung in Fairview Tennessee and see if he'll take it on.

[Paul Statman]

I get it. If it's a Collings, you could see if they're willing to sell you a roughed out neck and have one of the Northern California shops install and finish it for you. I'm thinking of Gryphon or Alan Perlman. There's also a fellow by the name of Dennis Berck who has a good reputation. Ditto if it was built by an overseas builder.

If that won't go, I'm sure there's someone on the West Coast who can build a neck from scratch.

The builder is not still active. It's not a Collings, and I know that they would have offered to sell me a neck if they were willing to do that when I asked! Are Dennis Berck and Alan Perlman located in CA?

[rcc56]

I'm pretty sure Alan is somewhere in the SF Bay area-- he has a Bay area phone number. www.perlmanguitars.com
Dennis Berck is in Eugene Oregon. His phone number came up on a google search.

I don't know if Gryphon [in Palo Alto] would make a neck, but if not, they would know who else on the west coast will.
I know that southern Cal is a desert as far as mandolin work is concerned, but there's got to be someone further up the coast who can handle the job. I understand if you don't want to ship the instrument, but if all else fails, there are several people in my part of the country who are capable of doing the work: John Hamlett and Chris Bozung are two of them.

[Paul Statman]

I'm pretty sure Alan is somewhere in the SF Bay area-- he has a Bay area phone number. www.perlmanguitars.com
Dennis Berck is in Eugene Oregon. His phone number came up on a google search.

I don't know if Gryphon [in Palo Alto] would make a neck, but if not, they would know who else on the west coast will.
I know that southern Cal is a desert as far as mandolin work is concerned, but there's got to be someone further up the coast who can handle the job. I understand if you don't want to ship the instrument, but if all else fails, there are several people in my part of the country who are capable of doing the work: John Hamlett and Chris Bozung are two of them.

Thsi is all great info, rcc56. Thank you, sir.

[Joey McKenzie]

You may be able to accomplish much of the feel you are after with a new fingerboard. It could be left on the thick side to increase the overall neck depth, and also flared on the edges a bit to increase the width if you want. Mike Marshall had a similar oversized fingerboard installed on his Loar many years ago as he has large hands that made playing the narrow Loar neck super cramped. If you or a future owner don't like the new board, it can be reversed and the original board reinstalled.

[Paul Statman]

You may be able to accomplish much of the feel you are after with a new fingerboard. It could be left on the thick side to increase the overall neck depth, and also flared on the edges a bit to increase the width if you want. Mike Marshall had a similar oversized fingerboard installed on his Loar many years ago as he has large hands that made playing the narrow Loar neck super cramped. If you or a future owner don't like the new board, it can be reversed and the original board reinstalled.

Funny you should say that. This mandolin was originally built to the neck profile and measurements and 'aircraft carrier' overhanging fretboard of Mike's Loar. It later got a shim under the fb before it was eventually replaced when the truss rod was replaced.

[jim simpson]

You may be able to accomplish much of the feel you are after with a new fingerboard. It could be left on the thick side to increase the overall neck depth, and also flared on the edges a bit to increase the width if you want. Mike Marshall had a similar oversized fingerboard installed on his Loar many years ago as he has large hands that made playing the narrow Loar neck super cramped. If you or a future owner don't like the new board, it can be reversed and the original board reinstalled.

I was going to suggest pretty much the same thing, glue an unslotted fingerboard on after removing original, then glue the original on top of the blank. The blank would be shaped to closely match the original fingerboard. I suppose you could tape the blank on top of the instrument fingerboard first to get an idea if the overall front-to-back depth would be enough or too much.

[Paul Statman]

I was going to suggest pretty much the same thing, glue an unslotted fingerboard on after removing original, then glue the original on top of the blank. The blank would be shaped to closely match the original fingerboard. I suppose you could tape the blank on top of the instrument fingerboard first to get an idea if the overall front-to-back depth would be enough or too much.

Wouldn't this upset the symmetry and angles/set-up of the mandolin? The string break angle at the nut, and even more more crucially, at the bridge?

[j. condino]

For clarity, lemme see if I'm hearing the story correct:

You've got a clone of an instrument that was made 100 years ago that originally had a skinny neck that was modified to be a wider fingerboard that was more recently modded a decade ago to have the modded clone neck modded again with a big shim under the fingerboard and now you want to have the whole rest of the neck modded again but want to keep all of the original modded clone geometry specs or is it the original first gen unmodded specs?????

Combine all that with a pretty obvious assumption from anybody that might actually take on this task that there is a fairly high risk of in the end you'll not be happy with the latest mod and then ask them to mod it all back to some previous incarnation of mods.

It doesn't sound like this is a mandolin problem....

[Tom Haywood]

I guess I'll be the nay-sayer. In my experience, the mass of the neck has a measurable influence on the volume and tone of the mandolin. Shaping the neck by removing additional wood (mass) is part of dialing in the final vibrations and sound. If this is a hand-made mandolin, there is a chance that the luthier understood and applied this concept. If made in a factory, I feel sure they were relying on an engineering solution to a prior design. I can't find any statement that says what kind of mandolin we are discussing other than it is an F5 and the neck is ostensibly based on a particular Loar. In any event, changing the mass of the neck will in all likelihood change the sound of the mandolin. Adding mass may well take the sound in the wrong direction, but that might also happen with removing any further wood. So, if you love the sound now, changing the size and shape of the neck seems like a non-starter to me.

[Bill McCall]

Anything is possible if you have enough money, and I’m sure the work you’d like done is not inexpensive, if you can find someone to do it.

The best option might be to simply buy another mandolin that meets your requirements.

[Paul Statman]

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