Reset bowlback mandolin neck

[Bernie Daniel]

Hello,

Any recommendations for someone who might have experience (and interest) in resetting the neck on a vintage (1882) Italian bowl back mandolin? If it matters this mandolin happens to have a double sound board. (pics included)

The neck relief (and subsequent string action) on the mandolin is not too bad (about 6/64" i.e., ~0.09" or 2.3 mm) but not ideal either. Also, since a lowering the bridge option has already been employed on this mandolin, I believe it is not longer a viable option. I believe that a neck rest or some kind on neck angle adjustment short of a reset will be required.

Feel free to contact me on the MC PM service or at Fargo1244 on google's email server.

[Richard500]

Bernie, unless someone raises their hand, my two cents: Neck resets on bowlbacks are not trivial because of the way they’re put together, so you might do best if the fretboard is reset instead. This can be by planing the neck or adding a thin wedge. Your photo indicates that this is likely possible since the board is not very thin, in which case you can’t remove it in one piece.
The question is whether the high action has increased since the bridge was lowered, or is stable. If it’s increasing, the neck is indeed moving, which doesn’t even have to show as a crack on the heel. Is there any warping in the soundboard?
Best luck.

[pops1]

I agree I would remove the fingerboard and slightly spring the neck into a back bow. Glue the fingerboard on and if done correctly it will flatten the neck relief and lower the action. I would do this before planing the neck.

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie, unless someone raises their hand, my two cents: Neck resets on bowlbacks are not trivial because of the way they’re put together, so you might do best if the fretboard is reset instead. This can be by planing the neck or adding a thin wedge. Your photo indicates that this is likely possible since the board is not very thin, in which case you can’t remove it in one piece.
The question is whether the high action has increased since the bridge was lowered, or is stable. If it’s increasing, the neck is indeed moving, which doesn’t even have to show as a crack on the heel. Is there any warping in the soundboard?
Best luck.

I agree I would remove the fingerboard and slightly spring it into a back bow. Glue the fingerboard on and if done correctly it will flatten the neck relief and lower the action. I would do this before planing the neck.

Gentlemen, I thank you for those good thoughts!

In truth I had thought about both of those options but wonder if either would be an appropriate thing to do on such an old instrument. Hearing others suggest it makes it seem less unorthodox!

Likewise, by nature, I always tend to favor simple over complicated and an approach like one of those is actually minimally invasive so that strikes me as a good thing also. What's more, a repair involving fret board removal is something I might even try tackling myself. A neck removal on a bowl back would be way beyond my comfort level though.

If anyone reading this thread would be interested in making a repair like that let me know.

[pops1]

There is another way, if you are comfortable doing a fret job. Pull one fret, measure the tang and buy some frets with a tang that is a few thousands larger. It's compression fretting and Martin used it with it's bar frets. I have also put bar frets in and old Martin with too much relief, I used bar frets 4 thousands lager and the neck is now perfect.

[rcc56]

I can't tell from the pictures whether the cause of the problem is a bowed neck, or a change in neck to body geometry, or both. I suspect both.
I probably wouldn't be able to tell without the instrument in-hand.

The options are:
1. Neck reset, if appropriate, practical, and do-able.
2. Remove fingerboard, straighten the neck if necessary, and/or install a tapered shim under the fingerboard. A compression fret job might very well be necessary.

I have doubts about whether a compression fret job by itself would be enough to solve the problem in this particular case. For a compression fret job to be effective, the slots must be deep enough so that driving wider frets will create enough wedging action to straighten the board and neck sufficiently. On your mandolin, the fingerboard is thin, the slots not very deep, and there's not enough room to deepen them very much more. And if the neck is not already bowed, springing the neck into a backbow under full string tension would not be the right solution. It would instead result in a mandolin that still wouldn't play right with decent action.

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A few years ago, I acquired a Gibson A with a badly bowed fingerboard. On that one, I was able to solve the problem by pulling the fingerboard, gently heating the neck as much as I dared, immediately clamping it into a ~0.010" - 0.015" backbow, letting it sit for several days, then reinstalling the board with hide glue and the same back-loaded gluing caul. On that one, no tapered shim was necessary. The neck/fingerboard assembly came out nearly perfectly straight. I followed it with a compression fret job to reduce any tendency for the neck to bow again. At that time, I would have estimated it to be about a $500 - $600 job. Since the instrument was in nice cosmetic condition, I was able to realize most of that plus the initial cost of the instrument when I sold it.

[Richard500]

Is there some sort of database on bowl back neck joints so exploratory surgery isn’t needed? My current issue is a L&H where I think body deformation is the issue because the soundboard is buckling both fore and aft of the bridge,which hasn’t sunk. Too nice an item to mess up, so I was only thinking of dealing with the fretboard.

[Marty Jacobson]

What's the value of the mandolin? I'm assuming this mandolin isn't worth a $1000 repair/restoration, except for value-in-use. I think the most cost-effective option would be to remove the fretboard and replace it with a wedged fretboard. If done properly, it would be nearly invisible since it would simply be 1mm thicker at the treble end. Most people would never notice it. You could also inlay some carbon fiber in the fretboard easily at that point to reinforce it further.

Compression refret is a possibility, but I've never done one on a bowlback, and I really wonder how much effect it would have at these short scales and with the neck only being like 7-8" long.

[Bernie Daniel]

What's the value of the mandolin? I'm assuming this mandolin isn't worth a $1000 repair/restoration, except for value-in-use. I think the most cost-effective option would be to remove the fretboard and replace it with a wedged fretboard. If done properly, it would be nearly invisible since it would simply be 1mm thicker at the treble end. Most people would never notice it. You could also inlay some carbon fiber in the fretboard easily at that point to reinforce it further.

Compression refret is a possibility, but I've never done one on a bowlback, and I really wonder how much effect it would have at these short scales and with the neck only being like 7-8" long.

I think you are right Marty. If you sank a grand into repairing that mandolin you'd have a mandolin that costs you about two-times what you could re-sell it for! LOL

There was a guy from Mississauga, Ontario who used to advertise on the MCC. He sold vintage European bowl back mandolins that he had personally restored to excellent condition.

Even so, none of his mandolins sold for more than a few thousand many less than $2K. I wanted to buy one of them several times but he did not ship to the US because of shipping/import issues.

[Tavy]

OK, first the good news: what you have there is a Ceccherini (I'm sure you know that already), they are very nice sounding instruments, and in fact the one bowl back I've kept for myself is more or less a twin to that one. I've also restored very nearly every Ceccherini that's come up for sale in the UK (which is not that often these days, and nothing for a few years, so there is some pent up demand out there for these). However, I have never seen one with a poor neck angle before. Indeed these are normally quite sturdy little instruments by Neapolitan stantards, which is one of the reasons I like them!

Now for the bad news: value is not that high as others have pointed out, maybe £500 tops.

The neck is also not resettable in the traditional sense: these are built with the neck and neck block as one piece of wood (actually a softwood laminate with a rosewood veneer wrapped around if we're being precise), and then the whole instrument is assembled around that block. So the point being that there is no joint to reset.

And for some of my American friends that haven't seen these before - the fretboards are wafer thin, usually cut right through, and fitted with chunky bar frets - a simple compression refret isn't an option either IMO. Some people will fit thick wedged fretboards to these, and as a last resort it does the job, but I confess I hate the way they look, it just makes me groan every time I see it - but it's your instrument, and better that it makes music than not.

I'm also confused why this would be necessary: since there is no neck join, these necks can only pull forward via body distortion (pretty common), now this will happen to some degree on all of these, but for it to be this bad, I would have expected either the back to have split apart, or the top to have caved in, neither of which I'm seeing here?

Sanity check here - what strings do you have on? These can only take ultra light strings: Martin 10-34's would be the absolute top weight, and many folks use GHS ultra-lights which are 9-32 if memory serves. If you put "regular" mandolin string sets on these then the neck absolutely will bend like a bow until something breaks, it is only soft wood in there after all. But I'm sure you know all this!

Other options: you can often "pinch" a little bit of fretboard thickness at the nut end when levelling the board which will gain you maybe 1mm extra height on the bridge. You also probably have a bridge at original height, and these can go down to around 4mm in height if required: lower than that and the bridge bends too much with the strings on, and your pick will hit the top when you play.

More drastic, Dave Hynds used to cut the neck right off Neapolitans with a razor saw and then reassemble with a new angle and a biscuit joint. It's not a particularly big job, but I always wondered - possibly unnecessarily - about the long term stability of that.

I would also want to know more about the cause of the problem, so here's my standard litmus test for these:

With the tension off the strings

1) place a straight edge along the frets - how much of a dip is there in the centre?
2) place a straight edge along the frets and maintaining contact with the frets, slide it out towards the bridge, if it:

a) misses the top where the bridge is, ideal, there's plenty of room for a bridge.
b) just grazes the top where the bridge is, then a super low bridge could be fitted but sound will be compromised as will action.
c) slams into the top before the bridge location, then we have a serious problem.

So.... nice mandolin, but more info required I feel.

[Tavy]

Oh.... but, but, but, just looked at your images again, is that a 2mm action???

That would have been about standard for these when they were made, so if that's the case I would just:

* Lift the frets, level the board and put the old bar fretwire back and level and dress.
* Adjust bridge height down - again it looks to be at (high) factory setting so there's room for adjustment there IMO.

and then enjoy a nice old instrument!

Back pre-pandemic you could have shipped her over, but US-UK postage rates have gone bonkers lately, so I suggest you talk to Marty Jacobson if he's willing.

But it would still be good for a sanity check on string gauges and the neck angle test as per my previous post.

[Bernie Daniel]

Oh.... but, but, but, just looked at your images again, is that a 2mm action???

That would have been about standard for these when they were made, so if that's the case I would just:

* Lift the frets, level the board and put the old bar fretwire back and level and dress.
* Adjust bridge height down - again it looks to be at (high) factory setting so there's room for adjustment there IMO.

and then enjoy a nice old instrument!

Back pre-pandemic you could have shipped her over, but US-UK postage rates have gone bonkers lately, so I suggest you talk to Marty Jacobson if he's willing.

But it would still be good for a sanity check on string gauges and the neck angle test as per my previous post.

Hey, long time no talk!! Thanks for all that info! Actually what got me interested in Ceccherini mandolins in the first place is this video that you posted years ago!

I agree that the strings that the current owner has on it now are way too heavy and I am thinking something like this would be better?

So after reading all your advice I'm thinking of just buying it and see if fitting it with lighter gauge strings will make it play OK.

I have not seen an ad from Marty in ages but then I am rarely on the Mandolin Cafe these days -- he has some lovely instruments but he does not ship across the boarder. If he did I would have bought one of his mandolins ages ago!

Good to hear from you again. Ivan used to speak well of you! I sure miss him!

[Jim Garber]

Bernie: In my not so humble opinion, best strings for a vintage Italian mandolin are Dogal Calace Dolce RW92b if you can find them. Bernunzio used to carry them but I think supply may come and go. Sweet sounding. I think the Lenzner’s might be good but I used those years ago and prefer the Dogal. Even on American vintage bowlbacks. My Vega sounds great with those.
—-
I don’t see them on Bernunzio’s site but this site has them. Strings By Mail.

[Tavy]

Bernie I owe you an apology: I didn't read your original post properly or spot that you're an old hand at this, apparently that's what happens when this old brain of mine has been staring at traffic all day (been away playing!).

And yes, it's good to be back around here after a bit of an enforced break with no time for mandolins

If the price is right, I'd say it's good for a punt, the G strings especially look really high over that bridge, e strings maybe not so much, but you only need to find about a 1mm or adjustment to get everything in the right ball park. Good luck in your quest whatever you decide!

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie I owe you an apology: I didn't read your original post properly or spot that you're an old hand at this, apparently that's what happens when this old brain of mine has been staring at traffic all day (been away playing!).

And yes, it's good to be back around here after a bit of an enforced break with no time for mandolins

If the price is right, I'd say it's good for a punt, the G strings especially look really high over that bridge, e strings maybe not so much, but you only need to find about a 1mm or adjustment to get everything in the right ball park. Good luck in your quest whatever you decide!

No apologies needed! I once looked back over comments I made years ago on this site and I no longer recognize that person either

Actually, you gave me a lot of very relevant information! That was invaluable to know about the one-piece neck and block. It seems to me that Orville Gibson did something similar on his first mandolins some two decades later?

The strings that are on the instrument now are too heavy and that must be a significant part of the problem? It seems also that the seller is open to installing a set of lighter gauge, classical style mandolin strings on the instrument and we'll see if that might not make a difference in the action?

Also at that time they can check the neck angle and see also if it has any under bow without string tension.

Who knows maybe the problem with this mandolin stems from way back in 1882? Maybe Signore Ceccherini did not build the perfect mandolin every time?

What would be a going rate for a mandolin like that? Perhaps $1000 - 1200?

[Bernie Daniel]

Bernie: In my not so humble opinion, best strings for a vintage Italian mandolin are Dogal Calace Dolce RW92b if you can find them. Bernunzio used to carry them but I think supply may come and go. Sweet sounding. I think the Lenzner’s might be good but I used those years ago and prefer the Dogal. Even on American vintage bowlbacks. My Vega sounds great with those.
—-
I don’t see them on Bernunzio’s site but this site has them. Strings By Mail.

Thanks Jim! If I end up with the mandolin I will definitely have to try those strings! The package alone is just too cool not have a set of them!

[brunello97]

Thanks Jim! If I end up with the mandolin I will definitely have to try those strings! The package alone is just too cool not have a set of them!

I’ll second (or third) the recommendation for the Calace Dolce strings, Bernie.
I’ve been using them on my bowls and flat backs for years. They seem to last forever.

I put a set of the Dogal medios on my Gibson oval as well. They sound great.

Mick

[Tavy]

What would be a going rate for a mandolin like that? Perhaps $1000 - 1200?

I've never paid more than £300 for a Ceccherini, especially if it needs work. One was a much higher spec, never to be seen again model which I still miss!

But like I said, I haven't seen one for sale in a couple of years now, so the price is in the eye of the beholder.

[Jim Garber]

As far as prices there’s a Ceccherini that has been at Bernunzio for maybe years at $1250. It too has issues.

Bernie: I am confused about your comment about Marty Jacobson not shipping across the border. Your signature says Cincinnati and he is in Georgia. Unless you mean state borders?

[Bernie Daniel]

As far as prices there’s a Ceccherini that has been at Bernunzio for maybe years at $1250. It too has issues.

Bernie: I am confused about your comment about Marty Jacobson not shipping across the border. Your signature says Cincinnati and he is in Georgia. Unless you mean state borders?

Hey thanks for that post. I clearly have Marty confused with another person who lives in Mississauga, Ontario and who used to regularly offer a nice assortment of bowl back mandolins for sale on the MCC. Over the years, he had several very nice Ceccherinis for sale but I never could convince him to sell me one of them because of potential shipping/import problems. I have seen the one from Bernuzio, thanks (it is listed on Reverb too). The price relative to condition seems a bit mismatched on that one. If I paid $1250 it would have to be in very good condition at least? As mandolins go these nice old bowl backs are quite inexpensive --but I don't want a wall hanger and I do not want try fixing one up either. Not my cup of tea.

[Jim Garber]

Hey thanks for that post. I clearly have Marty confused with another person who lives in Mississauga, Ontario and who used to regularly offer a nice assortment of bowl back mandolins for sale on the MCC. Over the years, he had several very nice Ceccherinis for sale but I never could convince him to sell me one of them because of potential shipping/import problems. I have seen the one from Bernuzio, thanks (it is listed on Reverb too). The price relative to condition seems a bit mismatched on that one. If I paid $1250 it would have to be in very good condition at least? As mandolins go these nice old bowl backs are quite inexpensive --but I don't want a wall hanger and I do not want try fixing one up either. Not my cup of tea.

I know who you mean. I corresponded with him a lot. He sent a few mandolins over to John Maddock (Tavy) in the UK. I would do the same but the price to ship Canada to UK was doable vs. prohibitive for US to UK. For some reason I think his first name was Peter.

[Tavy]

I know who you mean. I corresponded with him a lot. He sent a few mandolins over to John Maddock (Tavy) in the UK. I would do the same but the price to ship Canada to UK was doable vs. prohibitive for US to UK. For some reason I think his first name was Peter.

Peter K, yes, is he still around here? Sorry, I've been out the loop for a few years!

For what it's worth, I've managed to get UK-US shipping down to around £80 - that's still steep I know - and then you have customs etc to deal with, and these things are often covered in MOP and tortoiseshell! Slow boat (30 day) shipping was £50 but is untracked, and my past experience is that it really is super-slow. Peter was often buying on the UK market anyway, so shipping was only one way, otherwise it would have to be a box full of the things to make any sense I guess

[Jim Garber]

Peter K, yes, is he still around here? Sorry, I've been out the loop for a few years!

For what it's worth, I've managed to get UK-US shipping down to around £80 - that's still steep I know - and then you have customs etc to deal with, and these things are often covered in MOP and tortoiseshell! Slow boat (30 day) shipping was £50 but is untracked, and my past experience is that it really is super-slow. Peter was often buying on the UK market anyway, so shipping was only one way, otherwise it would have to be a box full of the things to make any sense I guess

Yes, funny, Peter and I emailed quite a bit about mandolins and I think we included you in some of those emails. I do wonder what ever happened to him. Maybe he just got sick of us.

Actually £80 is not so bad for quality work. I will keep it in mind if I acquire anything in the UK.