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Thread: What's this? 0-3-2-0

  1. #26

    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    Can't resist: how about an acronym?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bevan View Post
    "Frotation"?
    Adjust to "Fretation."

  2. #27
    Professional Dreamer journeybear's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    Maybe it's just me, but portmanteaus and similarly fabricated words are distracting, making one wonder what they mean, and thus work against undertanding. I think the term should be easily understood, thus keeping the focus on what is being said, not how it is being said.

    Isn't it funny how this has never come up before, that in all the time we Café denizens have been using this notation, it's never had a name? I wonder how that is. Maybe we're just so used to seeing it, we've grown accustomed to it. We just say "0230 C" and think nothing more about it. It's a little challenging, then, to imagine how someone who has never seen it before would see it, and how to name it so they would "get it" at a glance. Intriguing.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  3. #28
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    To follow up ...

    I have now re-worked all the C family chord images (though they're not online as yet). As I mentioned in my original post, I added this type of notation to each chart, and I named it "cafe shorthand", because no one convinced me there was already a truly definitive name for this sort of notation.

    A shout out for NDO (Don) for suggesting in another thread that I add this notation to the charts. I think it was a really good choice.
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  5. #29
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    Well, it's not really any of my business, you do what you want to do with your project, but I don't like it. My main objection is it presupposes that readers will know what you mean. Here at the Café, where tens of thousands of members see this notation fairly often, people understand it naturally. But outside of our mandolin mind's bubble, there are some 8 billion people in the world, of which surely there are several hundred thousand people with some interest in the mandolin - but no familiarity with the Mandolin Café. They won't have a clue what "cafe notation" means, where it came from, what it has to do with - well, anything. They may think it comes from folks somewhere sitting in a cafe playing mandolins. I mean, it's a juxtaposition of two words that doesn't convey an intuitively understood correlation. This term may cause some confusion, perhaps more so than understanding. I believe a term that is self-contained and obvious is best. That way, someone seeing it for the first time will know exactly what it means, and not get distracted by anything else.

    I still like my suggestion of "fret notation" the best: the name is directly related to its function. And NDO agrees, if that helps. I'm not 100% on it, I think a better term may exist, we just haven't seen it yet.

    But it's not really any of my business. I'm just trying to help.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  7. #30
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    Thanks for your thoughts but it’s done now. As with any shorthand or even musical chart situation, a little pedagogy and a key may be necessary for understanding … it will be my job to provide that … but I believe it’s an awesome addition to the charts, and it’s done now. Gathering around a coffee house playing mandolins is a great visual by the way, and not at all lost on me, lol.
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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    Your ode to Gertrude Stein in post #15 rings hollow in the heat of your current lament over my choice, journeybear

    If you look at my chord charts, you’ll see that the interval spelling of a chord is given without any label or explanation, the standard notation is given without any label or explanation, there will be many people who look at the charts and not know how to read standard notation, and perhaps have no idea what the interval spellings signify. To be truly analogous, I should simply put the shorthand in with no label, only the numerals themselves, like 7-8-8-8 … the user will either be knowledgeable about it or not, just as they will either read notation or not.

    My label is arbitrary, I like it, it says “casual” (cafe or coffee shop) and “quick” (shorthand). Also gives a nod to the best mandolin website in the world. But the label is really unnecessary. And if there were an a priori name or label established for this type of notation, I’d have deferred to it. Thus this thread. I’ve seen no definitive or conclusive evidence for one, so I’m sticking with my first instinct.

    Its like the lesson Ricky Nelson learned from the garden party he attended, y’know.
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  9. #32
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    the ozbcoz.com song editor uses similar text chord notation to define chord voicings if selected, for example: {define: Eb frets 0 5 6 6 }
    The same notation can be used if the editor doesn't recognize a chord on the mandolin. The help refers to it as a "Chord Definition"
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    My label is arbitrary, I like it, it says “casual” (cafe or coffee shop) and “quick” (shorthand). Also gives a nod to the best mandolin website in the world. But the label is really unnecessary. And if there were an a priori name or label established for this type of notation, I’d have deferred to it. Thus this thread. I’ve seen no definitive or conclusive evidence for one, so I’m sticking with my first instinct ...

    Your ode to Gertrude Stein in post #15 rings hollow in the heat of your current lament over my choice, journeybear
    That's not an "ode to Gertrude Stein," it's a parody of William Shakespeare, "Romeo And Juliet," Act II, Scene 2, "the garden scene." And it's not a lament; it's an in-depth well-reasoned (IMO) argument presenting my views on the matter.

    There's no need for condescension. You asked for suggestions in your original post. I've mulled this over, offered suggestions, and explained why. However, you also stated your intention in the OP, and ultimately stayed with it, regardless of the efforts of several members. We're all just trying to help, as we do, with a bit of humor mixed in, as we do. But it seems more like your mind was already made up, and were looking for confirmation. Even though you got none, you've decided to stick with your original idea. That's fine. It's your site; do what you want with it. As I said, it's not really any of my business, and as you implied, you can't please everyone, you've got to please yourself.

    BTW, your page on the C chord looks fine - replete with information, easy to read. You did misspell "notation" at one point, which is easy to fix. Overall, good work.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    Definitely no need for condescension, my humble apology both to you and to the late Billy. Had my mind been set in stone, I’d not have started this thread, and I do appreciate ALL the input. As I’ve already stated, none of the information brought here has convinced me that there is already a definitive term … and none of the suggestions have moved me to abandon my original notion. That’s the sum of it.
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    Quote Originally Posted by bwnunnally View Post
    the ozbcoz.com song editor uses similar text chord notation
    So does the Guitar Guy (another very useful website, by the way).
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    If someone in a bar shouted: Hey that chord you just played, what are the string numbers?
    And you replied: Aah, the Chord String Numbers are 0230.

    Or you could say: Dude, it’s a C major, work it out!
    Last edited by Simon DS; Sep-24-2022 at 5:51pm.

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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    As the Guitar Guy says in his introduction (bold face mine):

    I use chord names to describe specific formations, which are themselves described in detail below. Those descriptions indicate which string is fretted, and where. For example, the basic E chord would be described as 022100. The numbers represent the six strings of a guitar, the one on the left being the lowest tone, the one on the right being the highest. The number means only where the string is fretted -- I make no suggestions about which finger frets it there. That's up to you.

    An "x" in any string position means "Don't play this string at all." A "0" on a string means play it open -- not fretted anywhere.

    Because I'm describing specific formations by using specific names, let me add that I already know some of these chord names are not technically correct -- especially diminished chords, as described below. To repeat: my chord names describe chord formations and those chord formations are described below


    So he is using the same convention we do, but he calls it a couple of different things. I wouldn't call them "descriptions" - they're notations - but he does a good job of explaining what he's doing. I remain perplexed and a bit amazed there doesn't seem to be a standardized commonly-accepted term for this. It seems so obvious and direct and even intuitive. Go figure!

    Well, this has been a thought-provoking question. Thanks (I think!) for raising it. I have a feeling it's going to be rolling around in the back of my mind for quite some time. If I ever happen upon a term that feels just right I know where I'll report it.

    PS: The dang things are sitting right there on the Café Coffee Cup in bwnunnally's avatar!
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

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  16. #38

    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    "
    Journeybear: Well, this has been a thought-provoking question. Thanks (I think!) for raising it. I have a feeling it's going to be rolling around in the back of my mind for quite some time. If I ever happen upon a term that feels just right I know where I'll report it.
    SimonDS: And you replied: Aah, the Chord String Numbers are 0230.
    "

    Thanks for this discussion and info. After further reflection, I am thinking the most complete and accurate name needs to include all the keywords. By my thinking there are four keywords essential to describe this code: "chord" "string" "fret" "number". So putting the four keywords together, a suitable name would be something like "string fret chord number". I know its cumbersome but it avoids confusion with numeric codes which are based around the selected finger which would then be called "string finger chord number".
    Last edited by electric bassist; Sep-25-2022 at 12:08am.

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  18. #39
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    It’s the exact notation method of tablature, without the grid.

    A tablature grid is much like the musical staff, but the horizontal lines represent strings rather than notes. The vertical lines represent measures, and the numbers represent fret positions.

    In representing a chord statically where no musical movement through time is involved, there is no need of measures, time signatures, key signatures, etc. only the fret position per string. Thus, this quick & easy, truncated form of TAB where each particular string is implied by the placement of each digit or character.

    I would have to call it a form of TAB. Simple. And no matter what label is given it at a particular website (all of which have been shown to be arbitrary and not very descriptive), I submit that it actually is simply a static, truncated form of tablature.
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  20. #40
    Registered User Simon DS's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    I agree Mark, the problem is that a lot of guitarists think that TAB is text with [Gm] in between.

    But, 'what’s the Chord Tab?' seems quite self-explanatory to a mandolinist.

  21. #41
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    In a way, the internet is ruining the term TAB, which is short for tablature notation. Nowadays, some people seem to think that guitar tab is synonymous with lead sheet, as you’re referring to. A lyric sheet with chord names, lol.
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  22. #42
    Registered User Ky Slim's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    I like "cafe notation" as well as several of the other names folks have suggested.

    Mark, the thing that has got me since you started the thread is about the chord in the title of the thread "What is this? 0-3-2-0".. Was it meant to be a C chord? Or is it just a chord fingering for the sake of discussion what that type of notation is?

    Thanks in advance, Matt

  23. #43
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What's this? 0-3-2-0

    It was just a random example for discussion … but Bob (rcc56) did parse it in post #3
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