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Thread: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    I listen to many mandolin players on YouTube and other sources and many of them do not impress in the tone department. The mandolin can sound really tinny and there are some people who don't care for the sound of a mandolin at all. You have your work cut out for you in your tone quest. Tons of suggestions on what you might try to do to improve tone such as better mandolin, various picks or strings etc. My first thought was you may have a poor sounding mandolin as there are no shortage of them around. Maybe visit a store that sells the more quality mandolins and just play a few of them and see what happens, you may be surprised or maybe in your hands they will all sound crappy. Good luck in your tone search and look for joy in your mandolin playing.

  2. #27
    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    Way over 50% of tone comes from the player's hands and fingers. And it is BOTH HANDS. Too often the fretting fingers are not given enough attention.
    It has surprised me how many people in this thread brought up right hand technique. That probably shouldn’t have. My first guitar instructor famously told me once that 90% of tone comes from the players right hand.

    I’ve repeated that quote in public and had people give me strange looks and even outright scoff at me and call me an idiot. “Tonewood.” “Pickups.” All different kinds of things other than technique that they were all counting on for their tone.

    So I asked them “If you picked up Eddie Van Halen‘s guitar right after Eddie set it down, would you sound like Eddie?” They all said “No”. So I said “Of course not. That’s because most of his tone comes from his right hand.”

    Funny story aside, I felt most of my tone struggle has come from my LEFT hand, not hitting the fret at the “sweet spot” just behind the fret wire.

    Coming from guitar, that guitar sweet spot is awful large, and that encourages sloppy play. The mandolin sweet spot is tiny, and the neck is very unforgiving to sloppiness.

    And that’s why I keep running scale exercises, trying to train my left hand to always hit that sweet spot. My apologies to Mr. Heinlein, but the mandolin is a harsh mistress.

  3. #28
    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    But if really want TONE, having full control of the length/volume of the notes, start thinking about taking up fiddle/viola, flutes or other wind instruments.
    Niles, I hate myself but not enough to take up the violin.

  4. #29
    String-Bending Heretic mandocrucian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    It has surprised me how many people in this thread brought up right hand technique. That probably shouldn’t have. My first guitar instructor famously told me once that 90% of tone comes from the players right hand.
    With fingerstyle, the RH has a larger %. But until you get your LH finesse, you won't "sing" on the instrument. But if all you want to do is play fast notey lines (like a majority of mando players want) the LH isn't required to do much beyond fretting without muffles/buzzes. "All in the Right Hand" is a bunch of misinformation, probably from players that don't know any better.

    Aside from not fretting on top of the fret, that "sweet spot" (LH) stuff seems to me pretty much of a myth for mandolin. My suspicion is that it's probably an issue with excess finger pressure.

    BTW: You can sing on a flute fiddle etc. a whole lot more than you can on a mando if you put in the time/

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  5. #30
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    ...... "All in the Right Hand" is a bunch of misinformation, probably from players that don't know any better......
    Yeah sure, what did Dave Appolon and Jethro Burns know about playing mandolin.
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocrucian View Post
    . "All in the Right Hand" is a bunch of misinformation, probably from players that don't know any better.
    Yea, the OP asked about tone. That's all about pick angle and dynamic volume control with the right hand. Left hand is important too, but when everything is working right, tone is in the right hand.

    Have you ever noticed how tone changes if you change the pick angle?
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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    One other aspect that I know affects me is tension in my body. If I am experiencing any tension in my shoulders, elbows or wrists, my tone suffers. YMMV.
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    while fretting contributes to tone, I would consider proper fretting a very basic aspect of performing mandolin, same as hitting the correct string at the right time with the right hand.
    You can do that stuff and do it correctly and still have plenty of room to manipulate tone by emphasizing right hand technique.
    Pick direction and angle, the amount of force, are you planting or resting on the bridge, is the movement loose or tight, is it from the wrist or the forearm and so on.
    I try to learn the left hand so I don't have to think about it, and then try and focus more on the right.
    left hand problems ( beside putting your finger on the correct place on the correct fret) involve speed and chord shapes.
    A good Bluegrass chop requires both, while you can use multiple chord shapes, the right hand is somewhat strict in BG chopping, I wouldn't say it can't be done but you usually don't vary the rhythm with the left hand while chopping.
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    another idea. play music that demands good tone.

    for me, irish and bluegrass do not cut it, all attention goes into producing speed and energy, no time for tone.

    what does work for me, is medieval, breton and baroque music ("Playford stuff"). instead of machine-gun 1/8 notes, there is lots of space, and long notes have time to sound and all deficiency in tone stands out and demands improvement.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ1z...aBxz5A&index=5

    (specifically Hambleton's Round-O is a good mandolin tune, you can play in Cm closed position, or Am open position or closed position in two places)

    (the old quaint tunes sound grand at dance speed 120 bpm. Tune is by Mr. Susato "Mon Amie" from the 1400-eds)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFFhfFnb03I

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  13. #35
    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    I started on violin at 10 years old. I seriously started acoustic guitar when I was 13. It wasn't until I was 45 that I took up mandolin.

    With that background I was able to get acceptable to good tone on my entry level mando within a few months. However, it wasn't until I got my Cricketfiddle F4 octave mandolin and Morris hybrid F4 mandolin (2 years later) that I had instruments capable of providing a fuller, richer, more resonant tone.

    As I experimented with picks and strings (and played a LOT and worked on technique) my tone continued to improve. Like any skill the improvement/development rate is less than linear.

    Think of an X-Y plot where Y is the tone quality and X is time/effort. Going from zero to anything is an initial step jump up, followed by a curve with a decent upward slope. But change in tone quality per unit of time/effort keeps getting smaller as you get the basics down. The plot resembles logarithmic build up (like a capacitor charging). And, of course, "good tone" is not only subjective to the individual player - it also can change with the genre, and the evolving taste/discernment of the player.

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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by mandocello8 View Post
    another idea. play music that demands good tone.

    for me, irish and bluegrass do not cut it, all attention goes into producing speed and energy, no time for tone.
    [/url]

    I guess it depends on what bluegrass you are listening to, the kind of bluegrass and Celtic I play doesn't demand good tone, but there is plenty of opportunity to play good tone in either of those styles of music, and in America they are not all that different.
    Stuff like David Grisman, Tony Rice, Darol Anger, Mike Marshall, Todd Phillips, Joe Weed, Norman Blake, Peter Ostroushko, John Reischman, Jerry Douglas, Chris Thile even when fast still focuses on instrumental tone. Bothy Band, Kevin Burke, Donal Lunny, Andy Irvine on the Irish side are all very much about instrumental tone.
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    It all matters. Pay attention to the sounds you’re making and make subtle adjustments to everything from posture to pick angle to fretting fingers and continue to chase the sound you want.

    How long does it take? Maybe this year. Maybe never. It’s a lifelong endeavor.
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    I once read a comment, probably here in the cafe, saying that if you have never dropped your pick, you are holding it too tight. I think that's part of a more general point, which Bruce Lee expressed as "The less effort, the more power."

    Granted, Bruce Lee wasn't a musician. But his business was rapid, precise and effective movement, and so is ours. In both situations, we do not want any more muscles working than we absolutely have to.

  17. #39
    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    I was working on Soldier’s Joy last night, mostly liking what I was hearing. The only times I didn’t were when my left fingertip missed the sweet spot.

    I’ve started working on my right hand and my left hand separately. With a metronome I pick open strings, top to bottom and bottom to top. Then I work on fingering a movable scale pattern, no picking, just focusing on fingering each note lightly in the sweet spot.

    I plan on doing this for a while, then combining the exercises, then keep at it until I can do it constantly with good tone and without looking.

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Then you can get into skipping strings.
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    Registered User Mando Esq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in NH View Post
    I was working on Soldier’s Joy last night, mostly liking what I was hearing. The only times I didn’t were when my left fingertip missed the sweet spot.

    I’ve started working on my right hand and my left hand separately. With a metronome I pick open strings, top to bottom and bottom to top. Then I work on fingering a movable scale pattern, no picking, just focusing on fingering each note lightly in the sweet spot.

    I plan on doing this for a while, then combining the exercises, then keep at it until I can do it constantly with good tone and without looking.
    That sounds like a good, consistent plan.

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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in NH View Post
    I called around to the various music schools in my area. Most of those seem to be focused on teaching piano to 8 year-olds and guitar to teenagers, and one that is, oddly, focused on accordion.

    I attended a Wernick Jam Camp the other weekend. The woman who runs it also runs the New Hampshire Fiddlehead Ensemble and the NH Acoustic Roots Orchestra. I figured if anyone knew someone who could offer face to face mandolin lessons it would be her.

    But she e-mailed me back and said she wasn't familiar with my part of the state.
    Yeah, you must be speaking of Ellen Carlson. Are you limited, transportationally? The Music Emporium in Lexington, Ma. (781-860-0049) has a roster of teachers (or if they no longer do, they can provide referrals) that are top-notch players and instructors. If travel to there is somehow a problem, nearly any/all of the great mandolin players you can think of all offer interactive, on line instruction. I cannot over-emphasize the advantage of lessons with an accomplished player. I have been playing mandolin since 1973, and every time I have taken a lesson, my advancement increases astronomically. You can try to set up your own regimen and try to be diligent, but with a good instructor, you will immediately see advancement that will make you wish you had not wasted your time with self-learning. Stop making excuses for not doing so and posting here about it ...TAKE A LESSON!
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  22. #43
    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    The Emporium is well over an hour away. Strings & Things in Concord, where Carlton Page teaches out of, is closer but still to far imo.

  23. #44

    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in NH View Post
    The Emporium is well over an hour away. Strings & Things in Concord, where Carlton Page teaches out of, is closer but still to far imo.
    I used to drive 45 min to an hour each way to take an hour lesson with a top notch teacher once a month. It was worth it. Then he moved to east Tennessee. The 16 hour drive is not worth it.

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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    I guess it depends on what bluegrass you are listening to ...
    a plug for Buddy Merriam, he is the best! The first (and the best) bluegrass I ever heard, back when I lived on Long Island, NY. Great tone! And I am fresh from the bluegrass jam at the ANZA club (every Monday night), all local mandolinists have good tone.

    I was going to write "play with musicians who have good tone!", but not everybody has a weekly jam 5 bus stops away, no point to rub it in. On Long Island, bluegrass jam was a one hour slog down Sunrise Hwy.

    Listening to players who have good tone would give you an idea of what good tone is, but is unlikely improve your own tone by just itself.

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  25. #46

    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlM View Post
    I used to drive 45 min to an hour each way to take an hour lesson with a top notch teacher once a month. It was worth it. Then he moved to east Tennessee. The 16 hour drive is not worth it.
    I don’t believe TME is offering on-site lessons at the moment. They will however refer you to a teacher.
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  26. #47

    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    As a fellow beginner, I have noticed that aside from technique and equipment, a huge contributor to the tone that I am able to pull from the mandolin on any given day is how/where I have stored the mandolin. If I store it in a room with stable humidity in its case I notice the best sound when it comes out. If I leave it out on the stand, even with a dehumidifier running, not as good. If I leave it out in a room that has no humidity control, really bad generally. I'm sure this is common sense to many, especially if you've been playing a long time, but it took me a while to figure out. I couldn't understand why my mandolin would sound so lifeless some days no matter what I did. On other days, it would sound incredible with little to no effort.

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  28. #48

    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    mandocello8, I plan to come to the Anza club jam after I have practiced enough on the octave mandolin to feel ready. Definitely looking forward to it.

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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    I agree with Charlie. The tone is in the instrument. Which is why lots of mandolinists are so fussy about buying an instrument. If you really want to wrestle with tone, try playing flute or violin.

  30. #50
    Oval holes are cool David Lewis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good Tone - How long does it actually take?

    Like many here have stated, tonewood, strings, pick type help. I do think we confuse 'response' for tone, particularly with electronics. But setup - ease of playability helps. How does rob meldrum get a good tone on a rogue - setup. But setup is also response. If it’s easier to play, you can find that sweet spot. Generally things improve a good tone. I’m of the ‘technique first, setup second, gear third) school.

    Tone changes over time too. Some of it, in acoustics, anyway, might be 'opening up'. But we get to know the instrument too. Because, like many here, I play a few instruments, finding the sweet spot is different on banjo to mandolin. Which on guitar is different again. Or on bass. I agree the left hand is neglected fir the equally as important right hand. The left hand sounds he note. The right shapes it. You need both to be precise.
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