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Thread: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

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    Default Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Good afternoon!
    I just acquired this bowlback mandolin at an auction this weekend. I’m well acquainted with modern mandolins, but I don’t know much about bowlbacks. Here’s what I do know about this one:
    It was listed as being from the 1890s.
    It is very well made and has no cracks at all.
    It sounds so good and is loud.
    All parts appear to be original.
    It was 40 splines.

    Inside the mandolin, on the bowl, there is a black substance. It almost looks like tape, though that seems unlikely. Maybe paper and tar? I believe that it’s used to hold the splines together and it has done a great job. Can anyone give me more info about that. There were 6 or 7 bowlbacks at the sale, but this was the only one with the black inside.

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  2. #2

    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    With that tailpiece and details, it is most likely a Lyon & Healy mandolin from around 1910 or so. .

    Edit: One of the company's brands was American Conservatory- take a look at this thread which shows a similar mandolin:https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-and-restoring

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Thank you so much, Nick! That’s exactly my mandolin, it’s just missing the label.

  5. #4

    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Pleijsier's Washburn book shows various headstock styles and the headstock as on your mandolin he dates as 1915- he gives no date range just that year. Your mandolin looks like a very nice instrument- no bling but good quality construction and a multi-rib bowl.

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Does that book include all makers of instruments?
    I agree, it is a very nice instrument. Of all the ones I saw at auction this weekend, it had the most ribs and seemed to be the highest quality. It’s amazing that the condition can still be so good more than 100 years later.

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    I have a Carl Fischer label bowlback, likely made by Lyon & Healy "for the trade" around the turn of the last century. The inside is covered in white tape similar in width to the black tape in yours.

    It was my first mandolin. I got it in 1972, in exchange for a small amount of money (I don't remember exactly how much) a roommate owed me.

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  9. #7

    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Pleijsier's book on Washburn shows a few other examples of Lyon & Healy made instruments in a few American Conservatory ads but is a book on Lyon & Healy's major brand- Washburn and covers the instruments also made by Regal that were sold under that brand. There is a complex relationship between Lyon & Healy and Regal that I will not begin to explain and the company sold off its stringed instrument making- other than harps in the late 1920s.

  10. #8

    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    I just finished, or almost finished a very similar American Conservatory one. It has an almost illegible small rectangular label where either the ink faded or the glue used was reactive, so you might have a label loose on the inside of yours. Saw the same effect on another photo of one of these.
    About the lining, which on mine is fabric, on others paper. Some experts indicate that this is not structural at all, but something to apply to the mold before gluing all those strips down, which otherwise might stick - a release paper. I wouldn’t ignore the chance that it really helps hold the staves too.
    I say almost finished because, in addition to a small neck adjustment, I tried to flatten bulges in the soundboard, and failed, and also, despite the quality construction, some nice detailing, and good reputation, so far I’m not impressed with the tone.

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Thanks for your reply, Richard500. I think that is a thin cheesecloth like fabric inside with some kind of black glue or something. It really looks like tar to me, but surely it’s not.
    Mine is structurally in excellent condition. It also sounds phenomenal. I compared it to 6 or 7 others and there was a definite difference in tone between all of them. I chose the one that looked and sounded best to me. I hope that you get the one that you’re working on sounding good. These mandolins really are historical treasures in my opinion.

  12. #10

    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    One thing that is different from modern mandolins is that these old bowlbacks require extra light strings. Modern standard string gauges will destroy them.

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    I ordered a set of Dogal Calace mandolin strings for it. It made it 100+ years in good shape and I don’t want to ruin that. I’m going to give it about 2 weeks in my humidity controlled music room and then I’ll restring it. I don’t want to put fresh tension on dry wood.
    I actually think that it has the original strings on it. Or at the very least the strings are at least 50 years old. They are rusty and unwinding themselves. They certainly aren’t modern strings.

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Quote Originally Posted by StephanieC510 View Post
    I ordered a set of Dogal Calace mandolin strings for it. It made it 100+ years in good shape and I don’t want to ruin that. I’m going to give it about 2 weeks in my humidity controlled music room and then I’ll restring it. I don’t want to put fresh tension on dry wood.
    I actually think that it has the original strings on it. Or at the very least the strings are at least 50 years old. They are rusty and unwinding themselves. They certainly aren’t modern strings.
    Fair play to you, Stephanie, on the aquistion and for the choice of Dogal strings. They will sound great on this. Hopefully, the lighter weight Dolce set.

    Not to be too picky, but this is not an American Conservatory mandolin. The label is not missing, it likely never had one.

    Lyon and Healy made a lot of mandolins to a lot of different specifications.

    They branded some with their house names: Washburn, American Conservatory, Lakeline, College Line etc. in rough order of quality.

    These were duly labeled.

    They built others to be sold and labeled by others to be sold in their shops or perhaps with their name as a teacher.

    They also labeled some as their 'own brand' as Lyon and Healy. They even sold some under a label in Mexico City.


    Our friend, Mike, is of the opinion that L+H built batches of mandolins to certain (evolving) specs and labeled them afterwards. I think his theory has some validity.


    Sometimes the specifications from one line overlapped with another. There are some American Conservatory mandolins of higher quality build than the flagship Washburn mandolins. Some AC mandolins are of lower grade than the Lakeline models, most of which L+H inheirited when they bought out Regal mandolins from Indianapolis.


    Some of their unlabeled instruments have a close resemblance to the labeled models shown in the catalog pages that Nick references.


    It doesn't do anyone any good to call yours an American Conservatory mandolin because it looks like a branded one in a catalog.

    Some folks here have gotten into what I consider the bad habit of doing that and it just adds to confusion. The label didn't fall out.

    It's a Lyon and Healy mandolin that perhaps has specifications very similar to some mandolins in their American Conservatory line.


    I don't mean to come across as cranky. Just the opposite.

    I'm thrilled that you've acquired a very nice mandolin in what appears to be great condition, hopefully at a great price, and are invested in playing it.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Mick,
    Thank you so much for that information! I can find no evidence of a label ever being there which would back up your opinion.

    I’ve looked over the mandolin well and it is of a high quality. I had read that American Conservatory was a mid-grade brand and this mandolin feels higher quality. It would make sense to me that it is an unbranded L&H.

    You seem to have an impressive amount of knowledge about these antique bowlbacks. Thank you for sharing it with me. What year would you give this mandolin? I bought it tagged as 1890s, but another poster suggested 1915. What’s your thought on that?

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Mick, not to be picky but wasn't the L & H brand called Lakeside?

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Take a look at this thread. There are pictures of some forms (one type) as well as conversations about how bowlback mandolins were built. I think the lining inside was most likely a method to keep the bowl from sticking to the form. Some makers used cloth, some used paper and a very few had nothing there at all. They obviously all had their own methods and mass production means you have to limit the amount of time it takes to get the product finished and on its way. I don't think the lining has anything to with the structure of the instrument.

    By the way, I think my friend Mick's friend Mike is spot on in his assessment of L&H production practices

    If you'd like to see some of the brand names L&H used there is a listing on a website that was created by the late Mike Holmes called the Mugwumps Encyclopedia of American Fretted Musical Instrument Makers that most of us refer to when looking at brand names to attempt to get a starting point. Mike accumulated this information when most of us didn't have a clue as to what a vintage instrument was. His site is a fun place to poke around as well. The link to the encyclopedia is here. This list is by no means complete but it is still a monumental undertaking and we thank his family for continuing to host it.
    Last edited by MikeEdgerton; Sep-27-2022 at 6:38am.
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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Thank you so much for your reply, Mike! I’m really enjoying learning about these antique mandolins. The knowledge that is shared here on the Cafe is invaluable. I’ll spend some time today checking out Encyclopedia.

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    Mick, not to be picky but wasn't the L & H brand called Lakeside?
    Yessir! Not too picky at all. It was late and I was wracking my feeble brain.

    I understood these were a batch of instruments L+H inheirited from Indianapolis Regal when they took over (however that was accomplished.)

    I've never played one, but always have been interested based on the relative quality of those early Regals.

    Lakeline? Where did that come from?

    Mick
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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Quote Originally Posted by StephanieC510 View Post
    Mick,
    Thank you so much for that information! I can find no evidence of a label ever being there which would back up your opinion.

    I’ve looked over the mandolin well and it is of a high quality. I had read that American Conservatory was a mid-grade brand and this mandolin feels higher quality. It would make sense to me that it is an unbranded L&H.

    You seem to have an impressive amount of knowledge about these antique bowlbacks. Thank you for sharing it with me. What year would you give this mandolin? I bought it tagged as 1890s, but another poster suggested 1915. What’s your thought on that?
    Thanks, Stephanie...I do enjoy playing bowlbacks (among other mandolins) and have owned perhaps more than I deserve but have learned an enormous amount here at the MC on the long running "Bowlbacks of Note" thread started decades ago by the illustrious Diego Garber. A lot of super knowledgeable folks have participated in the conversations. You might enjoy checking it out.

    AC was titularly a 'mid grade brand' but as we've been discovering, some of the AC mandolins are distinctively better quality than some of the Washburn models.
    Things seemed pretty fluid at L+H and it seems that only the Washburn line of their bowlbacks had a clearer level of consistency in the details.

    I've owned a few AC mandolins, but none as nice as yours. They regularly seemed to feature stunning rosewood for the bowls and often true ebony for the fretboards.

    I've touted here the unprovable position that AC mandolins are the best value / $$ mandolins on the used instrument market.

    I did have an L+H labeled mandolin which had many of the features that yours does.

    The age of yours? Hard to be real certain, but that's where some of the catalog matching that Nick was proposing can be helpful. Without digging into Keef's great book, I would suppose 1900 to 1910 might be a good guess for yours, fwiw. That was a real production heyday for L+H with their different lines spreading out.

    The Dogal Dolce strings on this will sound really really good.

    Let us know what you think of it once you have it all strung up and ready.


    Mick
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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    With regard to the lining paper: having recently removed and replaced some, I can tell you that either paper, cloth, or veneer (as in Embergher) when applied with hide glue will shrink and pull the ribs together super-tight. Obviously they are still all capable of tearing if the stress applied is sufficient, but much to my surprise (I assumed the lining was cosmetic), they do appear to have at least some structural purpose.

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    With regard to the lining paper: having recently removed and replaced some, I can tell you that either paper, cloth, or veneer (as in Embergher) when applied with hide glue will shrink and pull the ribs together super-tight. Obviously they are still all capable of tearing if the stress applied is sufficient, but much to my surprise (I assumed the lining was cosmetic), they do appear to have at least some structural purpose.
    Perhaps even moreso with the thin shaved layers of wood some Italian builders used on the interiors?

    L+H used various lining materials and often none at all.

    The AC mandolin I still have has a cloth interior liner.

    The "Lyon and Healy" labeled bowlback I had that was close to Stephanie's specs had no liner.

    That's when I discovered L+H's muy sketchioso practice of inserting a divider strip (or two) into a narrow groove on the exterior face of a bowl stave to make it appear as if there were two or three staves instead of one.

    You could count the staves on the inside and comp them with those on the outside.

    Or by looking at the rosewood grain pattern on adjacent staves.

    Other builders might have deployed this j-a-t as well, but I haven't run across any yet.

    L+H experimented with a pair of interior diagonal ribs spanning across an unlined bowl interior in '90s.

    The first Washburn I owned had that feature.

    I don't know how effective it was and it seemed to be abandoned by 1900 or maybe sooner.

    It looked pretty good, though.

    Mick
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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    With regard to the lining paper: having recently removed and replaced some, I can tell you that either paper, cloth, or veneer (as in Embergher) when applied with hide glue will shrink and pull the ribs together super-tight. Obviously they are still all capable of tearing if the stress applied is sufficient, but much to my surprise (I assumed the lining was cosmetic), they do appear to have at least some structural purpose.
    Sorry, not buying it. We are talking about what amounts to tissue paper and sack cloth having magical properties. I'll give you the veneer, plywood is always stronger. This isn't the days of fiberglass cloth and Kevlar, these were probably not even high quality products for the day.
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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Sorry, not buying it. We are talking about what amounts to tissue paper and sack cloth having magical properties. I'll give you the veneer, plywood is always stronger. This isn't the days of fiberglass cloth and Kevlar, these were probably not even high quality products for the day.
    I really should have taken some images.... the one I took apart looked just like that, however, once that layer of paper was off, there was a quite nicely applied layer of something much tougher underneath. Better applied too, I completely agree that the visible paper part is always a total mess and not worth a cent.

    You are correct of course that it can't have that much strength as such. If the body starts distorting under string tension, something will give sooner or later.

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    L+H experimented with a pair of interior diagonal ribs spanning across an unlined bowl interior in '90s.

    The first Washburn I owned had that feature.

    I don't know how effective it was and it seemed to be abandoned by 1900 or maybe sooner.

    It looked pretty good, though.

    Mick
    I'd love to see an image of that.

    Sounds like it might be quite strong, I bet it's a bind to fit though which may be why they abandoned it?

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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    I really should have taken some images.... the one I took apart looked just like that, however, once that layer of paper was off, there was a quite nicely applied layer of something much tougher underneath. Better applied too, I completely agree that the visible paper part is always a total mess and not worth a cent.

    You are correct of course that it can't have that much strength as such. If the body starts distorting under string tension, something will give sooner or later.
    If you look through the hole in the paper in this picture you'll see what is underneath it and I'm willing to bet the majority of them were built the same way. Those are the staves and the dividers. Again, the paper and cloth used on these early mass created bowls couldn't possibly have contributed to the strength and integrity of the bowl. I still maintain it was a means of keeping the bowl from sticking to the form. Martin did a nicer job as you would expect them too but they still had some glue leak through that affected the covering. If that was structural they would have replaced but they didn't.
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    Default Re: Identifying bowlback mandolin and question about black inside

    There weren't a whole lot people still building bowls in the 30's but apparently someone paid John D' Angelico to build one in 1933. D' Angelico appears to have used three strips of some fiber tape in this situation. The rest doesn't appear to be lined as you can clearly see the saw marks on the staves of the bowl. It looks like he simply painted it black for the aesthetic. If it is indeed lined that is thin material to show those marks.
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