Hi, first mandolin. Any ideas on identity?

[Jim Garber]

To be clearer unlike the appearance of the back of your instrument you so kindly went to the trouble of presenting,it’s what “might” be described as the traditional Neapolitan back I was trying to avoid.
It might be the pic or simply my poor eyesight or perhaps just my lack of familiarity with the variety of backs and their descriptive terms that’s creating my confusion.

I am not sure what you are getting at. Most Neapolitan mandolins are bowlbacks and this is nothing of the sort. Maybe you are talking to someone who told you to avoid bowlbacks. Frankly there are a few of us who love them. In any case that is not what you will receive. As long as it it playable you should be fine.

[Rif]

I am not sure what you are getting at. Most Neapolitan mandolins are bowlbacks and this is nothing of the sort. Maybe you are talking to someone who told you to avoid bowlbacks. Frankly there are a few of us who love them. In any case that is not what you will receive. As long as it it playable you should be fine.

Hi Jim,
Sincere apologies if my ignorance is shining through and inadvertently creating offence.
Up until yesterday I was aware of there being three types of mandolin being A and F and the bowl back.

I’d bidded on an auction item in which the seller had described the instrument as being a flat back.

Not being aware of the existance of other types, when contributors to this thread talked of my purchase as a dome back I was struggling to comprehend and thinking they were telling me I’d bought a bowl back which as an instrument I held no opinion on beyond it not being my aesthetic preference and not what I’d thought I’d bidded on due to the sellers description.

I was really starting to worry about my eyesight given none of the threads photos appeared to be a bowl back yet there was references to a dome back which was beyond my terms of reference and knowledge leaving me me thinking my eyes were deceiving me and somehow I’d managed to buy something I didn’t want and seemingly had lost the ability to discern visual shape in internet pics.

Again no opinion whatsoever about pros or cons of any Mandolin beyond a visual preference for a first instrument for myself to start to learn as a complete novice how to play something.

I don’t yet play any instrument or have any ability to read music.

If my words have suggested I wish to cast dispersions on bowl back mandolins or anyone else’s preferences of instrument, I can only apologise and attempt to palatably explain a now much more obvious lack of knowledge of mandolins in general and merely a confusion made worse by a online auction auction sellers likely honest mistake in their description.

[Jim Garber]

Hey Rif: Don’t worry! I did not take offense or thought you were casting aspersions against bowlbacks. Some of us have delved into the bowlback world and found some positive aspects of these often-maligned instruments. What I meant to do was to help you understand that you were not buying a bowlback ion any case. The back of the Lonestar or similar designed mandolin just has an arched back much like a a lot of other mandolins.

For your further information: the most common mandolins have arched top and back and the more expensive ones of these are carved. There are others much less expensive that resemble these but made of pressed wood or laminated wood.

The one you purchased looks to me and others here as what we would term a flattop meaning made similar to a flattop guitar (not carved or arched wood). The back of these can appear completely flat or can be slightly arched like Richard’s Lonestar mandolin.

[Rif]

“I was going to ask wether such an instrument might share the same strings, tuning etc.”

You can tune any instrument in any way you like so it’s quite possible that you’ll be able to tune it as a mandolin even if it isn’t. Whether you can or not largely depends on the gauge of strings you use and the scale length. When it arrives, measure the distance between the nut and the twelfth fret, double it, and let us know the answer. Somebody will then tell you what to do next.

The instrument has arrived intact and whilst it’s life has left evidence of prior ownership I’m happy with it overall.

I count 16 frets in total and get a measurement for double the distance between the nut and the twelfth fret of 13 inches edge to edge.

My pics at the top of this post attempt to show the width of the nut and bridge as well as the 12th fret distance from the nut.

My worry about not appreciating the shape was groundless

Hey Rif: Don’t worry! I did not take offense or thought you were casting aspersions against bowlbacks. Some of us have delved into the bowlback world and found some positive aspects of these often-maligned instruments. What I meant to do was to help you understand that you were not buying a bowlback ion any case. The back of the Lonestar or similar designed mandolin just has an arched back much like a a lot of other mandolins.

For your further information: the most common mandolins have arched top and back and the more expensive ones of these are carved. There are others much less expensive that resemble these but made of pressed wood or laminated wood.

The one you purchased looks to me and others here as what we would term a flattop meaning made similar to a flattop guitar (not carved or arched wood). The back of these can appear completely flat or can be slightly arched like Richard’s Lonestar mandolin.

Some great info there Jim, thanks.
Oh and I enjoyed listening to your Soundcloud stream.

Don't be disappointed until you try it. The pictures show no obvious signs of poor workmanship. Also, the deep body may give you a rich and resonant sound. It may work out well for you.

Now it’s safely arrived intact with no transit damage and in a used condition that’s ‘as described’ by the seller my stress levels are markedly less than they were a couple of days ago. It appears to be an instrument I’ll be more than happy to begin the process of learning with.

[Steve Finlay]

Nothing to apologize for, Rif! On behalf of all of us here, I am very sorry if it sounded like anyone was offended or upset. Nothing is better than welcoming someone who is new to this world; prior knowledge is not required.

Not everyone would agree, but I believe the mandolin is both easy (ish) to learn for someone who is starting in music, and capable enough to be enjoyed at all levels of ability. Unlike a violin or oboe, you don't have to struggle for weeks just to make one note sound pleasant. You don't have to stretch your fingers very far until you get into some advanced techniques. There are some easier instruments, such as autoharp or ukulele, but you hit a wall fairly soon with those where you can't escape from a limited range of music without leaping to a vastly higher technical level -- if you can escape at all.

You may not read music yet, but that's why tablature exists. And even if you don't read music and have no musical training, you already know a lot about music. You can't help it; we all hear music every day of our lives, and our brains are pre-designed to hear and feel those patterns of pitches and rhythms.

So for example, if I play you a recording of a song that ends with a Picardy third, you will hear it and enjoy it without fail, regardless of the fact that you don't know what that name means. A lot of musical training is not actually learning music; it amounts to learning the names for things and the ways of writing down music. The music itself -- you know that already.

[Ray(T)]

OK - double the distance between the nut and twelfth fret is known as the “scale length”. The “scale length” is simply the distance between the nut and the bridge; I suggested doubling the nut/12th fret distance because the bridge might have been in the wrong position. A mandolin would normally have a scale length of 13 inches, give and take, so you can legitimately string it as a mandolin. If you’re looking at light gauge strings, you could do worse than sticking a set of d’Addario EJ73 strings on it. I tend to use EJ74s on everything - they’re termed “Medium”.

The nut is slightly wider than most mandolins but not by much. Ther’s no “standard” width - most of mine come in at around an inch and a quarter but I’ve seen necks much narrower. Wider ones are sometimes popular with people who are taking up the instrument after playing guitar; although I’ve never undrstood why!

I see that there are no fret markers on the fingerboard. Are there any on the side?

[Rif]

Nothing to apologize for, Rif! On behalf of all of us here, I am very sorry if it sounded like anyone was offended or upset. Nothing is better than welcoming someone who is new to this world; prior knowledge is not required.

Not everyone would agree, but I believe the mandolin is both easy (ish) to learn for someone who is starting in music, and capable enough to be enjoyed at all levels of ability. Unlike a violin or oboe, you don't have to struggle for weeks just to make one note sound pleasant. You don't have to stretch your fingers very far until you get into some advanced techniques. There are some easier instruments, such as autoharp or ukulele, but you hit a wall fairly soon with those where you can't escape from a limited range of music without leaping to a vastly higher technical level -- if you can escape at all.

You may not read music yet, but that's why tablature exists. And even if you don't read music and have no musical training, you already know a lot about music. You can't help it; we all hear music every day of our lives, and our brains are pre-designed to hear and feel those patterns of pitches and rhythms.

So for example, if I play you a recording of a song that ends with a Picardy third, you will hear it and enjoy it without fail, regardless of the fact that you don't know what that name means. A lot of musical training is not actually learning music; it amounts to learning the names for things and the ways of writing down music. The music itself -- you know that already.

Plenty of food for thought there.
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement.

OK - double the distance between the nut and twelfth fret is known as the “scale length”. The “scale length” is simply the distance between the nut and the bridge; I suggested doubling the nut/12th fret distance because the bridge might have been in the wrong position. A mandolin would normally have a scale length of 13 inches, give and take, so you can legitimately string it as a mandolin. If you’re looking at light gauge strings, you could do worse than sticking a set of d’Addario EJ73 strings on it. I tend to use EJ74s on everything - they’re termed “Medium”.

The nut is slightly wider than most mandolins but not by much. Ther’s no “standard” width - most of mine come in at around an inch and a quarter but I’ve seen necks much narrower. Wider ones are sometimes popular with people who are taking up the instrument after playing guitar; although I’ve never undrstood why!

I see that there are no fret markers on the fingerboard. Are there any on the side?

Thanks Ray,
There being no local music store hereabouts, I’ve left a question on an online store asking availability on those EJ73 strings and will grab some.
Can I expect them to be looped at one end? I notice what’s on there currently has loops on the tailpiece.

No fret markers unfortunately either on the fingerboard or the sides.

The action too appears higher than I expected even after moving the bridge lower.
I tried moving the bridge lower in an attempt to make more even the difference in string over fret height as it was lower higher up the neck.
As I said previously, I don’t have great eyes but placing a metal ruler down the fingerboard across the frets, the gaps underneath appear even so I’m guessing/hoping the neck is straight.

Might I be right thinking some work on the bridge might be in order, either deepening the string slots or sanding some material (wood) from the bottom of the bridge?

[Ray(T)]

The cheapest d’Addario strings I’ve found recently were from Amazon and I think they only make the 73s/74s/75s with loop ends.

What you have is a mandolin with a non-adjustable bridge. The wooden part is the “bridge” and the white part is the “saddle”. The usual way to reduce the height of the strings over the fretboard is to shave some material off the bottom of the saddle. Don’t be tempted to deepen the slots on the top.

If you try to do this, you need to make sure that the bottom of the saddle is perfectly flat and square (assuming the slot it fits into is already totally flat!). A luthier would do this in a couple of minutes using a disc sander but doing it yourself runs the risk of rounding off the bottom which will affect the sound so you need to be careful. The standard way of raising the action is to place a small shim beneath the saddle so check that there isn’t one there already.

Messing around with the action is frought with pitfalls. Personally, I’d want to know why the saddle is too high. It’s possible that the neck has moved slightly but only someone with experience and the instrument in hand is likely to be able to diagnose this. If this has happened, reducing the saddle height will only be a temporary fix.

[Jim Garber]

The action too appears higher than I expected even after moving the bridge lower.
I tried moving the bridge lower in an attempt to make more even the difference in string over fret height as it was lower higher up the neck.

I am not sure what you mean by moving the bridge lower. If you mean you are sliding the bridge down the body away from the neck you may be affecting the intonation and your mandolin may not play in tune.

[Rif]

The cheapest d’Addario strings I’ve found recently were from Amazon and I think they only make the 73s/74s/75s with loop ends.

What you have is a mandolin with a non-adjustable bridge. The wooden part is the “bridge” and the white part is the “saddle”. The usual way to reduce the height of the strings over the fretboard is to shave some material off the bottom of the saddle. Don’t be tempted to deepen the slots on the top.

If you try to do this, you need to make sure that the bottom of the saddle is perfectly flat and square (assuming the slot it fits into is already totally flat!). A luthier would do this in a couple of minutes using a disc sander but doing it yourself runs the risk of rounding off the bottom which will affect the sound so you need to be careful. The standard way of raising the action is to place a small shim beneath the saddle so check that there isn’t one there already.

Messing around with the action is frought with pitfalls. Personally, I’d want to know why the saddle is too high. It’s possible that the neck has moved slightly but only someone with experience and the instrument in hand is likely to be able to diagnose this. If this has happened, reducing the saddle height will only be a temporary fix.

Thanks Ray(T)

I’ll be making a trip to a city soonish, so will try to get the mandolin checked out by someone known for their work on mandolins.

I made some calls to the nearest music stores and determined that there were no local luthiers near my location.

There is in the two cities nearest me, but the closest is approx 2 and a half hour drive, although a little longer by coach given I gave up the car around a decade ago.

I am not sure what you mean by moving the bridge lower. If you mean you are sliding the bridge down the body away from the neck you may be affecting the intonation and your mandolin may not play in tune.[/COLOR]

Yes Jim, I’m beyond my skill set and knowledge here and have determined to buy some strings and to get the mandolin set up by someone who knows what they are doing and can determine if there are any underlying issues that might need addressing and if it’s cost effective to do so.

[brunello97]

Lots of helpful information on how to do this on line.

Here's a YT video on setting up a mandolin and positioning a bridge.

On the same YT page there are a rash of other instructional videos to help you with the task at hand.

May save you the 5 hour drive time.

Mick

[journeybear]

Looks like you've been getting some good advice and suggestions, better than I can provide. I'll just mention I'm curious whether you found any distinguishing marks inside to help identify it. Maybe in a hard-to-see place, like inside the top.

The cheapest d’Addario strings I’ve found recently were from Amazon and I think they only make the 73s/74s/75s with loop ends.

D'Addario does make strings with ball ends. Make sure you don't get those.

I order strings online from Strings and Beyond mostly, sometimes Just Strings. These are American companies which may not ship overseas. S&B offers free shipping for orders over $35 US, so I do that, though again, that may apply only to domestic orders. I suggest you do some googling to see if there are companies in NZ that suit your requirements.

... my Paracho mandolin, which I play each morning while talking to Henry Kissinger on the phone ...

Say what? Why are you torturing that nice old man? Hasn't he been through enough?

[Rif]

Looks like you've been getting some good advice and suggestions, better than I can provide. I'll just mention I'm curious whether you found any distinguishing marks inside to help identify it. Maybe in a hard-to-see place, like inside the top.


D'Addario does make strings with ball ends. Make sure you don't get those.

I order strings online from Strings and Beyond mostly, sometimes Just Strings. These are American companies which may not ship overseas. S&B offers free shipping for orders over $35 US, so I do that, though again, that may apply only to domestic orders. I suggest you do some googling to see if there are companies in NZ that suit your requirements.
:

Hi Journeybear,
Yes getting some great advice in the thread.
No unfortunately no markings anywhere that I can find.
I’ve had my headlight torch out and extensively searched inside and out (including inside the top) to no avail.
I’ll be sure to get some looped strings.
Shipping from the USA is generally outrageous and usually a direction of last resort with it most of the time more cost effective to purchase US products from out of the US.
A while ago I was keen to get an e-mando but my enthusiasm was curbed somewhat by the shipping being dearer than the instrument.
I shall however peruse the offerings from the stores you mentioned

I just now checked out Amazon and despite there being no import fees, the shipping on a single set of strings is dearer than the purchase price of the strings themselves.

It’s not an issue as mandolin strings are available similarly priced in stores to the Amazon prices.

Lots of helpful information on how to do this on line.

Here's a YT video on setting up a mandolin and positioning a bridge.

On the same YT page there are a rash of other instructional videos to help you with the task at hand.

May save you the 5 hour drive time.

Mick

Thanks for the link and suggestion Mick.
That YouTube is indeed a wonderful resource.
My initial look at the bridge and saddle suggest someone has glued them together at some stage.
Whilst I shall delve into the YouTube rabbit hole, I will be showing the mandolin to a luthier to explore all options.

[Steve Finlay]

If my understanding is correct, the saddle is the part of the bridge that the strings rest on (in?), and yes it is glued to the bridge. But the bridge should NOT be glued to the top. If it is, you are better off getting a luthier to unstick it, clean up the mess, and position the bridge correctly.

If it is necessary to refile the nut slots or file down the bridge to ease the action, those are not expensive repairs.

[Ray(T)]

Saddles should definitely not be glued to the bridge. The only reason I can see to glue one in is if it fits so badly that it slops about and won’t stay vertical or possibly that the saddle slot is too shallow. If the former were the case, the best solution would have been to cut a new saddle, if the latter a new bridge as well.

Saddles, like the one you have, are more common on acoustic guitars and are held in place by string pressure. It’s often unnecessary to glue nuts in place as it makes it difficult to get them off again. If they are glued, a small spot on the end of the fingerboard is the best option - so they don’t drop off and get lost if, for any reason, you remove all the strings.

[Rif]

If my understanding is correct, the saddle is the part of the bridge that the strings rest on (in?), and yes it is glued to the bridge. But the bridge should NOT be glued to the top. If it is, you are better off getting a luthier to unstick it, clean up the mess, and position the bridge correctly.

If it is necessary to refile the nut slots or file down the bridge to ease the action, those are not expensive repairs.

Hi Steve, I share your understanding on what the saddle is and yes I was told the bridge is referred to as a “floating bridge” in that it’s not attached to the top of the instrument.
I’ve confirmed that it’s floating.

Saddles should definitely not be glued to the bridge. The only reason I can see to glue one in is if it fits so badly that it slops about and won’t stay vertical or possibly that the saddle slot is too shallow. If the former were the case, the best solution would have been to cut a new saddle, if the latter a new bridge as well.

Saddles, like the one you have, are more common on acoustic guitars and are held in place by string pressure. It’s often unnecessary to glue nuts in place as it makes it difficult to get them off again. If they are glued, a small spot on the end of the fingerboard is the best option - so they don’t drop off and get lost if, for any reason, you remove all the strings.

Thanks for the info Ray(T)

I don’t have access to a workshop so won’t be attempting any remedial efforts myself.

My fingers are crossed that it’s a simple and inexpensive adjustment or replacement of the saddle/bridge and not anything in the way of a more extensive repair.

I’m not panicking or stressed about it and will put my energy towards acquiring some accessories like a tuner and a selection of plectrum to try to keep me amused between now and when I can make a city trip.