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Thread: Changing pick hold

  1. #1
    Registered User paulspafford's Avatar
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    Question Changing pick hold

    Hey, y’all,

    When I was about 14, I was finally allowed to quit Conservatory piano lessons. I found out that guitar frets were each worth a semitone, asked a friend what the guitar strings were tuned to, and began to teach myself on my dad’s old guitar. About 15 years later, I started on mando (and eventually other instruments). Now I’m 52 and have almost 40 years of reinforcement of everything I’ve done wrong.

    As a result, a lot of my technique sucks. Most detrimental is how I hold the pick: I use a thumb and two fingers, with the fingertips pointing straight at the strings. I think this could be why my speed isn’t great, and may be why I can’t do tremolo to save my soul.

    So last night I watched Chris Thile's 11-minute video on how to hold the pick. Looks easy enough, but feels like I’m starting almost from scratch. Chording is tough, but single-string melodies are doable. I accompany myself while singing the blues, so I really need to be able to do both - and to switch between them seamlessly. I also do a lot of percussive stuff and muting with my picking hand.

    Any advice to make this a faster and easier process? I feel like simple melodies are easily attainable, but when I try chording, it feels and sounds like I’m beating the crap out of my poor Eastman; it’s even worse on my tenor banjo.

    Thanks,
    Paul

  2. #2
    Timothy Tim Logan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    There are various ways to hold a pick as exemplified by partners Mike Marshall and Caterina Lichtenburg. Mike holds a pick similar to Chris Thile. Caterina holds the pick in a very different way as do most European classical players. I think it is like everything else in the mandolin world: personal preference. Perhaps it would be good to look at more than one approach to holding a mandolin pick and choose what feels best. When I first picked up a mandolin I held the pick like CT and most American bluegrass players. When I started studying in earnest I changed (it took a LONG time) to the hold recommended by Caterina Lichtenburg. Now I find it very difficult to try to play with the traditional "bluegrass grip". It's really an individual thing to my mind.

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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Easier and faster…. Nope sorry. Loose fingers loose wrist if you don’t drop your pick occasionally you are holding it too tight, Be patient it will come and your tremolo ill improve when you angle the pick with the new Open or closed middle ring and pinky fingers will work either way. Be patient it will come. John Reischamn holds his pick similar to what you are describing. Check him out.
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  6. #4

    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Watch how Wayne Benson talks about his pick hold journey

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  8. #5

    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    I was a self taught guitar player since before I was in High School and for 30+ years I held my guitar pick with three fingers as many rock guitarists do. Then when I started taking lessons for the first time when I was 50, the first thing my instructor did was get me to change my pick hold to two fingers; it's much more difficult (though not impossible) to play rapid fire continual notes required in most fiddle tunes with a three finger hold.

    When I first made the switch, it felt like I was starting all over again. But within a month or two of daily playing, it started to feel very natural and now I could never go back to a three finger hold. When I picked up mandolin, I just applied the same two finger pick-hold I use playing guitar.

  9. #6
    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    There’s no ‘faster, easier’ way to change. Wayne Benson said it took him several months to change his pick grip, albeit up to his high standards. As you’ve learned, you’ll go a bit backward before you go forward. Just be patient with yourself.

    On the other hand, players like Brian Oberlin use that pick grip and it doesn’t seem to be holding him back any.
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  11. #7
    Registered User paulspafford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Thanks for the responses. My oldest son is a guitar teacher. When he was 8, he was doing my three-finger hold, and I made him change (only took him about a day at the time). He swears that my playing will improve exponentially if I change. I was hoping one of you would have some secret sauce that would make this easier, but it sounds like there are months of work ahead of me. Guess I’d better keep at it!

  12. #8
    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Don’t base your estimated “months of work” on a few anecdotes of others, we’re all a bit different when it comes to learning … as well as to personal technique, etc.

    in my own opinion, using a three finger approach will not necessarily limit you, there are so many other, more important, factors i.e. pick angle, tension in every joint of the hand, wrist, elbow and shoulder, etc.

    That said, like you, I decided to switch from a lifelong “pencil-hold” three finger grip myself after picking up mandolin five or six years ago. I found it extremely awkward the first week, and difficult to practice, after which it became steadily easier.

    If you have the mindset that every aspect of your playing can be improved, and you view learning new things as a lifelong trip musically, then this will be no more difficult than learning totally new chord voicings, etc. Just something new to suck at a bit until it clicks, lol.
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  14. #9
    Registered User paulspafford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    If you have the mindset that every aspect of your playing can be improved, and you view learning new things as a lifelong trip musically, then this will be no more difficult than learning totally new chord voicings, etc. Just something new to suck at a bit until it clicks, lol.
    I already suck quite a bit at it, so maybe I'm ahead of the game. :D

  15. #10
    Registered User mbruno's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Regarding the difficulties changing your current "norm" for a "better way" - it might help to read John McGann's post on how he changed his playing https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...fe-Was-Changed. He was (and still is) an amazing teacher.

    With that in mind, a lot of "proper technique" is really just what works best for most people most of the time. There's a slew of amazing players with "bad technique" - but it works really well for them (Chris Cerena and Michael Cleveland come to mind - Adam Steffy if you're anti-pinky plant too)). Definitely watch your favorite players and how they do things - try to steal / copy as much as you can as well - but remember, they play their way, you need to play yours. If your way is different, it doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. For me, Scott Gates is one of my favorite mandolin players - I would never hold my pick like he does (some weird thing with his first and third finger) - but it clearly works well for him.

    All that said, here's how I hold my pick. Basically the pick rests on my first finger and my thumb is on top. The thumb provides downward pressure on downstrokes while the first finger gives upward pressure on upstrokes.
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  17. #11
    Registered User paulspafford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Yep, if I didn't think there was a potential benefit, there is no way I'd be putting myself through this. I'm mostly happy with my playing, but despite much effort, I can't seem to do tremolo or get any faster. I feel like advice from Thile is likely to be good, and should help loosen me up. We can always find examples of people with non-standard grips who are great players, but I bet we can find more with the standard grip.

  18. #12
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Wayne hit the nail on the head when he said you have to commit to it.

    I committed to changing my pick grip about 20 years ago, when I was trying to learn to flatpick guitar and use heavy picks, before I really started playing mandolin. It was a shock, because I just couldn't find the strings with the new pick grip. It took me around 6 months of gritting my teeth and refusing to go back to my old ways before it really started to feel comfortable - but I wasn't practicing nearly the hours that Wayne does.

    I have tried and failed more than once to commit to learning to use fingerpicks for fingerstyle guitar. I just don't have the motivation to deal with that level of frustration.

    Ironically, I took mandolin lessons from Wayne for a couple years after I changed my grip, and I was buffaloed at how he could pull tone out of his mandolin with that bizarre (to me) pick grip - but he said at the time he never told any student how to hold their pick. It's so cool to see that he had a similar experience changing his own pick grip!
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  20. #13
    but that's just me Bertram Henze's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Quote Originally Posted by paulspafford View Post
    ...almost 40 years of reinforcement of everything I’ve done wrong.
    That's what stands in the way of faster/easier. Patience is the way to go. A somewhat heavy-handed Hulk approach (beating the crap) is normal under the circumstances and will right itself, given due time, and these instruments are more robust than they look.
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  22. #14

    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    Quote Originally Posted by paulspafford View Post
    I use a thumb and two fingers, with the fingertips pointing straight at the strings. I think this could be why my speed isn’t great, and may be why I can’t do tremolo to save my soul.
    I use thumb and 2 fingers (alot). IME, that doesn't mean the pick angle is perpendicular and horizontal to the strings.
    I think it helps actually to be able to change easily the strength of attack. My own pic angle is pretty much always 'slanted'.

    Sometimes I do practice with the closed fist grip and yes, it changes the tone, but is that tone 'better'?
    Tone is in the player, the instrument, the strings and the technique. Do we all want to sound the same?

    Speed wise, I'm very much quicker, and more accurate using my primetone large triangle 1.5mm pick with the 2 finger and thumb grip.
    If i want slightly more 'dense, fluid, but duller tone, it's an easy switch to thumb and 1 finger but my speed and ease of pick direction changes goes out the door.

    I learned this maybe 40 years ago on guitar and never really felt like anything was missing. No different on the mando IMHO. We are humans looking for good tone that gives a signature tone.

    Just my opinion. Others will clearly not agree but for me, my playing isn't hurt by that pick style.

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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    It just takes time and patience, but it will be worth it in the end, and you’ll figure out how to adjust your attack so you don’t feel like you’re playing too hard. The process sucks but is worth it in the end. While you’re working on this it’s a good time to work on your pick direction (via Mike Marshall’s Finger Busters, or just working on what you already know). That was the gem I’ve picked up from MM’s Artistworks course so far that’s made a huge difference in keeping the musical flow of my playing going…

    Everyone is different, and there are a lot of pick hold variations that people can make work. They do generally make speed and precision tougher for us mere non-Adam Steffey mortals…
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  26. #16
    Registered User paulspafford's Avatar
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    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    I appreciate everyone's input. It's hard going, but I am starting to make progress. I worked with my kid the other day (he's ten times the player I'll ever be). He gave me a variation on the standard grip that is easier for me to switch to, but still may get the benefits I'm looking for. Of course, there's a possibility that my grip is NOT what is stopping me from doing tremolo or getting decent speed, so this may be for nothing. Will see how it goes. Thanks again!

  27. #17

    Default Re: Changing pick hold

    I use this grip. It is clean and fast with little pick noise. Keep your grip very loose… like the pick feels like it could slip out loose. It is similar to some folks I’ve seen.
    You use the flatter edge of the corner for a smoother tone and the point for a harder tone. It also allows for easy upstrokes because it follows the natural motion of the wrist. If you want a clickier sound let more of the tip out… you want a rounder sound bring the tip closer to your fingers.
    Be sure to keep your hand loose, usually my middle finger is a little forward and my other fingers are lightly curled in towards my palm. For harder strumming I can extend them a little for support and for fast clean phrases I curl them more but never into a full tight fist.
    Hope this helps
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