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Thread: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

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    small instrument, big fun Dan in NH's Avatar
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    Default Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I have been considering a varnish finish mandolin as my next instrument, but I’m starting to reconsider. Varnish finish is supposed to offer better tone, but I’m wondering does it has decent durability, or does it have to be babied?

    Can I keep an arm rest on a varnish finish mandolin 24/7, or do I have to take it off after I’ve finished playing? Same for a clip on tuner? Will leaving a clip on tuner on the headstock mar the finish?
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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I'm currently repairing an F5 mandolin that I built at Troublesome Creek a couple of years ago. It went through the eastern Kentucky flood. it looked fine until it started to dry out and then some glue joints failed. The finish? TruOil over oil varnish. It still looks just fine, other than the damage I've done while working on the repairs. It will touch up and look fine, if not untouched.

    The thing is, however, many different finishes can rightly be called varnish and some are much more durable and damage resistant than others, so knowing what the varnish is is important for answering the question.

    As for 24/7 armrest, tonegard, clip-on, that's not a good idea no mater what the finish is.

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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in NH View Post
    I have been considering a varnish finish mandolin as my next instrument, but I’m starting to reconsider. Varnish finish is supposed to offer better tone, but I’m wondering does it has decent durability, or does it have to be babied?

    Can I keep an arm rest on a varnish finish mandolin 24/7, or do I have to take it off after I’ve finished playing? Same for a clip on tuner? Will leaving a clip on tuner on the headstock mar the finish?
    I had an armrest for 8 months on my Ellis, which is varnish. Recently took it off, no mark. I use one of the clip on tuners that attach via a tuning machine screw.

    I had a clip on tuner on my Collings, not varnish. It left a mark after a couple years. But that was on and off and adjustment etc.

    I love the feel of varnish. It feels more woody/natural to me, if that makes any sense. I dont know if it changes the tone.

    I have noticed tiny marks from playing it, that I suspect wouldn't have happened with a lacquer finish.

    If I was ordering a mandolin, I probably wouldnt pay the price for varnish upcharge. Although, many of the high end mandolin producers only offer varnish. So kind of stuck with it, if that is what you are looking for.

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    Registered User G. Fisher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan in NH View Post
    I have been considering a varnish finish mandolin as my next instrument, but I’m starting to reconsider. Varnish finish is supposed to offer better tone, but I’m wondering does it has decent durability, or does it have to be babied?

    Can I keep an arm rest on a varnish finish mandolin 24/7, or do I have to take it off after I’ve finished playing? Same for a clip on tuner? Will leaving a clip on tuner on the headstock mar the finish?

    IMO there is no noticeable tone difference between varnish or lacquer. Some of the best sounding Gibson mandolins are the ferns from the 20's and they are lacquer. Also, all of R.L. Givens mandolins are lacquer finish and sound great. It's all about the skill in applying the finish.
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    Exclamation Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    Sweaty T shirt on player ... protection of backs of varnished mandolins,
    is another benefit of Tone Gards.

    {I saw that poll you posted as another topic}

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    Registered User Kirk Higgins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I have had an arm rest and a small D’Addario clip on tuner on my 2007 Kimble F5 for well over a year now and there are no noticeable marks from either of these in the varnish finish.

    However, I have put a few light belt buckle scratches in the finish so I recently put a tone guard on it to protect the varnish on the back.
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I agree with G. Fisher, there's more to an instrument's sound than the finish and both lacquer and varnish can contribute to or inversely inhibit tone and volume.
    Both being "refined" products, you certainly can get better quality and or lesser quality batches depending on production and raw material.

    With no scientific evidence to support me, I would say lacquer seems like a thicker layer than varnish (which is often over dye).

    if you can get access to playing some different ones, even then the finish may have nothing or little to do with why you choose the instrument

    I have a few of both, while none of my mandolins sound exactly alike, I wouldn't say I prefer varnish over lacquer (or vise versa) for any particular reason
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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    Finish film thickness has little to do with the type of finish and much to do with the skill and conscientiousness of the finisher. When a finish is kept thin it has minimal affect on the sound of an instrument, so the sound of a well finished instrument with a quality thin finish film will not be greatly affected by the finish regardless of what the finish is.

    So, as for the OP's statement "Varnish finish is supposed to offer better tone", that is based on anecdote at best and more likely just hearsay. I know of no double blind listening test or any other science to support the claim.

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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    People have been musing and debating over Stradivari's "magic" varnish formula for perhaps 200 years.
    Many were sure there was a "secret" ingredient. Knowledge passed into lore, lore passed into theory, then fable, and finally myth.

    The last I heard, the latest spectrographic analysis using state of the art equipment gave the following result: a drying oil, plus a resin, plus coloring material. No mystery substances. In short, it was a standard oil varnish, using standard ingredients available in Italy in the years surrounding 1700.

    Another myth exploded.

    Me, I like the look of varnish, when well formulated and skillfully applied.
    Nitrocellulose lacquer is good stuff too, with the above caveats.
    It takes time and patience to develop good finishing skills. Not many folks are masters at finishing.

    A lot of modern instruments have enough lacquer applied to cover 3 or 4 instruments. Some modern era Gibson finishes appear to be particularly heavy.
    Thinner finishes look better, and conventional belief is that they sound better.

    The words "varnish" and "lacquer" are used very freely and cover a large number of products these days. Formulae and materials have changed over the years due to ease of production and safety and environmental concerns.

    I generally avoid finish debates these days.

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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    My Weber is varnished, 15ys old, with toneguard and arm rest. No pick guard. It looks almost as good as new, and still smells fantastic.
    The method Weber was using for varnish in the mid 2000 is working for the Montana climate.
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    As John said, the term "varnish" is used to describe lots of different formulas these days. If referring to traditional oil based varnish, then yes, it doesn't cure quite as hard and will pick up surface wear quicker than some other finishes.

    Tonewise, a mandolin can easily have a brighter, more cutting tone. A softer varnish finish can temper that some. Of the mandolins I've built, the last one with a nitro lacquer finish is definitely the brightest of the bunch. Varnish can also feel less sticky to the hand than a highly buffed lacquer.

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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I have several mandolins that are lacquer and one that is varnish - the varnished Gibson F-5 that I've had for about 18 years.
    I treat them all the same. Toneguards and tuners are left on, I gig with them, I leave them on stands sometimes.
    They're all fine. And I don't "baby" the varnished one.

    Like children, mandolins can handle more than we think that they can.

    Kirk

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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I, too, will emphasize this previously published statement:

    "The words "varnish" and "lacquer" are used very freely and cover a large number of products these days"

    Most commonly abused and nebulous instrument finish term: "nitro"

    If you're talking Eastman, their use of the term "varnish" is likely more a marketing ploy than it is a sonic enhancer.
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I’ve owned a dozen or more mandolins over the past 20 years, and all but one was finished with nitro-lacquer. Comparing roughly 11 nitro-finished mandolins with my one varnish finished mandolins suggests to me there is at least a difference in feel, perhaps tone as well but we’ll never really know because they are completely different instruments to begin with. I should also add, of the nitro-finished instruments my favorites of the bunch were a Weber Fern and Collings MT. Those companies make/made good mandolins, but it’s worth noting I am stacking them up against my Hamlett, and John is a well known expert at understanding and applying finishes. So, I’m not sure how far the comparison goes. Assessing the finishes of two nice production mandolins with the finish by an accomplished independent luthier. At the very least, they’re objectives are different, with the Webers and Collings being built for some shelf time and to perhaps standardized processes designed to produce lots of instruments, and John’s being a died in the wool one of a kind build.
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    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    "Varnish"...

    I can spray a $10 quart that you can buy at Home Depot to 1/4" thick.

    I can spend weeks cooking my own in the traditional northern Italian method that has been used for centuries and apply it by hand less than 1/10 mm thick.

    'Big difference between those two methods and outcomes, even though people use the same name....
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    My favorite mandolins have had varnish finishes, but I’m not saying that reason explains why they’re my favorites. Correlation =/= causation. It may just be that my favorite luthiers are building for a market that values varnish (along with hot hide glue, dovetail joints, etc.). That said, if I were pursuing a next mandolin, and certainly I were custom ordering one, I would prefer an “awesome” varnish finish that is not “more trouble than it’s worth.”
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I haven’t noticed any difference in durability between varnish and lacquer finishes on my mandolins, including the one with French polish under a lacquer top coat. I don’t use an armrest or tone guard and I don’t keep a tuner permanently attached, so I have no judgment regarding the ability of different finishes to stand up to that.

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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    Quote Originally Posted by Andy B View Post
    I haven’t noticed any difference in durability between varnish and lacquer finishes on my mandolins, including the one with French polish under a lacquer top coat. I don’t use an armrest or tone guard and I don’t keep a tuner permanently attached, so I have no judgment regarding the ability of different finishes to stand up to that.
    Yeah... but which one sounds better? Has it ever been discussed?
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I took the arm rest of mine because it was leaving a mark… but then again my sweat does the same so����#♂️ Most varnishes are gonna wear. That’s part of the charm.

  24. #20

    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I have both nitro and varnish mandos. Gibson fern , brentrup f5, respectively.

    Charlie Derrington in a lengthy interview said he could hear a difference, but barely, between the two types of finish.

    I love my varnish mando, but, it is much more vulnerable to the smallest dings, bumps, etc. it is essentially like raw unfinished wood, ie the spruce.

    My nitro mando has far better resistance to little bumps , etc. it still looks almost new. And gibson doesnt make their finishes really thin.

    The varnish one, it looks road worn indeed, despite my attention to being careful. Varnish is delicate, hates almost anything moist other than jubilee polish. I left a daddario micro tuner on for a few hours, and its ‘non reactive’ pad indeed did react, leaving a small blemish on my then new baby’s headstock face…

    Any difference i may hear…dont thinks its the finish. In any event, both are great, and i prefer the robustness of nitro, especially if things get a little warm and humid.

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  25. #21

    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I would very tentatively say that my mandolins with varnish finishes generally sound better to my ears than those finished with lacquer. But I like them all and the instruments are different enough that I find it hard to be certain to what extent, if any, their sonic differences result from their finishes. Also, when I listen to recordings of these instruments, the differences that I think I hear when playing are harder to detect. Finally, the one finished with both (lacquer top coat over French polish) sounds about as good as the varnished ones. In sum, my experience is inconclusive.

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    Registered User Kirk Higgins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Varnish finish - Awesome or more trouble than it’s worth?

    I have had the D’Addario micro tuner on my 2007 Kimble for well over a year and it has had no impact on the finish.

    The only time the tuner comes off is if I am checking to see if it left a mark on the finish. I rarely check it anymore.

    The finish on this mandolin is well cured by now. However, it might make a difference in the early years when a varnish finish is still curing.
    Kirk

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