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Thread: What is the story behind the "scroll"

  1. #26

    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    I think the supporting mass (i.e. scroll and point blocks) shouldn't dampen the sound, as long as the vibrating mass (the top and back) can still vibrate freely. Else, banjos wouldn't be so loud.

    Also, subtle changes in sound chamber shape can affect tone a lot, as demonstrated by different guitar body shapes.

    I wouldn't expect these changes to make a bigger difference than, say, sound hole shape, but I would expect them to make some difference.

  2. #27
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Another part of the equation -- I do have a number of pro guitar and mandolin player friends who strongly believe that X-brand tuners improve tone on an instrument because of their weight. I don't have experience with those particular tuners so I cannot comment, but I know if I paid the cost required for them I'd hope that they improve tone.
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    Registered User Dan Adams's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Who knows where we hear stories and if they are fact based or not? I always heard the scrolls were put on other instruments to emulate the scroll on the peg head of a violin? Turn the scroll on it’s side.. we have mandolin scroll.
    Play em like you know em!

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    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by milli857 View Post
    I think the supporting mass (i.e. scroll and point blocks) shouldn't dampen the sound, as long as the vibrating mass (the top and back) can still vibrate freely. Else, banjos wouldn't be so loud. ...
    ... And also, associated to the reason archtop tone ring banjos tend to sound brighter than flathead tone ring banjos.
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  5. #30
    === High Strung === gfury's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Regarding the construction of the scroll. It could affect the tone.

    I have a brand new MF, and the portion of the scroll that I can see through the F-hole is hollow.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by gfury View Post
    Regarding the construction of the scroll. It could affect the tone.

    I have a brand new MF, and the portion of the scroll that I can see through the F-hole is hollow.
    There's generally but not always a sliver that is hollow on the outside edge part way around but by the time you get to the curl of the scroll it will be solid.
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  8. #32
    === High Strung === gfury's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    There's generally but not always a sliver that is hollow on the outside edge part way around but by the time you get to the curl of the scroll it will be solid.
    Thanks

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  10. #33
    Registered User Polecat's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    I believe that "Scroll" is a contraction of "Scrofula"
    "Give me a mandolin and I'll play you rock 'n' roll" (Keith Moon)

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    The Amateur Mandolinist Mark Gunter's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Back to OP, story behind the scroll … answer has already been given. The short, down & dirty version is that Gibson is largely responsible. The harp guitars and such with the scroll were designed in the same era by Gibson … and Bill Monroe is largely responsible for the mandolin’s continuing popularity in folk music and the desirability of F style instruments.
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Here is the story of "the scroll" It's originally from God, it's in plants, our own ears, critter tails-all sacred geometry! A very beautiful thing indeed in all its forms from nature to ancient architecture. Thats my take, take it or leave it.

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  14. #36
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by Phantoj View Post
    I am going to mention the harp guitar again... I think the scroll helped make the extended upper bout on the bass side look less like an ungainly bulbous protrusion and more like part of the design.

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    You posted a Gibson harp guitar. We are talking about influences on Gibson to do scrolls to instruments. Harp guitars were not the first instruments to have scrolls and among Gibson production were just among the other scrolled models. Harp guitars made by other makers prior to Gibson did not necessarily have scrolls.
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  16. #37

    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    In reference to dhergert's assersion that the Tone-Gard effects tone, I would have to say a beer-gut to the back will effect it even more.

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  18. #38
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Violins had them first (well after the fern began millions of years ago)
    writing about music
    is like dancing,
    about architecture

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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Hilburn View Post
    In reference to dhergert's assersion that the Tone-Gard effects tone, I would have to say a beer-gut to the back will effect it even more.
    Agreed!

    And just to be clear, I didn't necessarily mean that because of the added mass a ToneGard in any way diminishes mandolin sound.

    In my opinion normally a ToneGard and other things that add vibrating mass to a mandolin (and many other instruments) improves sound -- as long as they are installed in a way and in a location that does not mute the main vibrating surfaces. That's also part of the Virzi concept.

    But the problem with sound and human hearing is that we all perceive things differently. We can't get away from that.
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    You posted a Gibson harp guitar. We are talking about influences on Gibson to do scrolls to instruments. Harp guitars were not the first instruments to have scrolls and among Gibson production were just among the other scrolled models. Harp guitars made by other makers prior to Gibson did not necessarily have scrolls.
    Were Gibson's harp guitars the first necked musical instruments to have the same kind of scrolls as a F-style mandolin? They seem to have come out very close to the same time. I think the first harp guitars were around 1902 ?

    Of course scrolls have been used on musical instruments for a long time... 1200 BC? Click image for larger version. 

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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    If you don't like people's opinions on this, just scroll past them

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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by Bazz Jass View Post
    If you don't like people's opinions on this, just scroll past them
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    ...
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  26. #44
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Here's a recent Fretboard Journal article on a turn-of-the-20th-century scrolled mandolin built by Orville Gibson. I've seen nothing to disprove the generally-held position that he introduced the scroll into mandolin body construction -- as he did the violin-carved top.

    Also, I've seen no credible evidence that the scroll was considered other than ornamentation -- reserved for Gibson's more expensive mandolin series. I happen to find the graceful curvature of the scroll an enhancement to the mandolin's silhouette, but recognize that others disagree (often strongly). As to the OP's question, Gibson's scrolled mandolins were their higher-end models, and therefore could be assumed to be "better" instruments. Their elaborate ornamented design was -- and remains -- quite distinctive, so pro mandolinists in search of a performance instrument would likely gravitate toward them. Gibson at the time (early 20th century) was very aggressive in their marketing, and Gibson mandolins, including F-models, were seen in the hands of famous mandolin players.

    Whatever one may think of the utility of the scroll, the design has surely persisted, adopted by mandolin builders world-wide. I've said several times that Gibson surely missed the boat by not patenting, or at least trademarking, the scroll-&-points mandolin body design. If every Asian-produced F-model mansion had to pay some sort of royalty to use the design, Gibson would have many fewer revenue issues, IMHO.
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    I have 1 of each. The 1910 F4 and a 1911 Style u. Its all I could afford.
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  29. #46

    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Whatever one may think of the utility of the scroll, the design has surely persisted, adopted by mandolin builders world-wide. I've said several times that Gibson surely missed the boat by not patenting, or at least trademarking, the scroll-&-points mandolin body design. If every Asian-produced F-model mansion had to pay some sort of royalty to use the design, Gibson would have many fewer revenue issues, IMHO.
    There have been several lawsuits that have come to a final conclusion that you cannot patent or copyright the body shape of an instrument. I'm sure they would do it if it was a possibility.

  30. #47
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    At the time Orville Gibson was developing his innovative mandolin designs, Art Nouveau (aka Jugendstil, Stile Liberty, Modernisme, Modern Style) was still prominent and considered very modern. Curves predominated the work of graphic designers, furniture makers, and architects in that style, and I think Gibson was just trying to find what was then a contemporary style for his revolutionary instruments. Take a deep dive into the designers in that school and I think you'll see that Gibson was right in stride with that aesthetic.

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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    It would be very interesting to get a look at his notebooks or sketch books - if he had any - to see what designs he might have been playing with before he settled on this one.
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Use of the scroll in design has been used for millennia. Quote here:
    "Scroll patterns and ornamentation have existed in our culture for millennia; examples were found in the Palace of Knossos at Minoan Crete from around 1800 B.C., but some believe the Egyptians and Mesopotamians also adorned architecture and textiles in scrolling patterns based on the observation of real plants, sometimes featuring fruit, animals and birds. Many Roman Stucchi also featured ornate curling leaf or plant-based patterning, which would later have a profound impact on the Italian Renaissance."
    Source of quote: https://blog.fabrics-store.com/2020/...croll-pattern/

    Additional quote: "Every violin, viola and cello has a scroll whose only real function is to be beautiful and to showcase the skill of the maker.
    The distinctive scroll found at the top of fine violins, violas and cellos is a purely decorative woodcarving that showcases the violinmaker’s skill as a maker and craftsman. The concept originated in the Baroque era."
    Source of quote: https://www.benningviolins.com/violi...he-scroll.html

    The oldest Orville Gibson mandolin I saw had the scroll, but the instrument itself was very crudely made. Looked like he made it on his kitchen table or garage with simple hand tools.

    I think even in this era the scroll displays the skill of the builder, but does not mean the instrument sounds or plays better. The same skilled builder can make a superb instrument with any body shape.

  34. #50
    Lurkist dhergert's Avatar
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    Default Re: What is the story behind the "scroll"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nashville View Post
    ... Additional quote: "Every violin, viola and cello has a scroll whose only real function is to be beautiful and to showcase the skill of the maker.
    The distinctive scroll found at the top of fine violins, violas and cellos is a purely decorative woodcarving that showcases the violinmaker’s skill as a maker and craftsman. The concept originated in the Baroque era."
    Source of quote: https://www.benningviolins.com/violi...he-scroll.html ...
    That's an interesting quote, but I don't think you'll find that every viol-family instrument player/owner agrees that the scrolls have no affect on sound. Some people go to extreme lengths to keep the original scrolls on upgraded instruments, and at least part of the reason among some people is a belief that the scroll affects sound.

    That said, it's another thing that is impossible to prove one way or another. I'm not weighing in on it except to say that technically it is possible.
    -- Don

    "Music: A minor auditory irritation occasionally characterized as pleasant."
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