Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: MasterModel

  1. #1

    Default MasterModel

    I am seeing sellers advertise F5-Ferns, G’s etc as MasterModels. I thought a MM only referred to Gibsons top of the line model. I realize the label in a the lower models says “Master Model”.

  2. #2
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Sugar Grove,PA
    Posts
    3,371
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: MasterModel

    You're correct as I've seen it also, astronomical prices for certain F-5's say F5-L's that the seller says is a MM for like 10K-granted some F5-L's can bring that if they are a special run "with varnish instead of lacquer finish". I've went as far as saying to some yes, they all say MM on the label, but true MM's will be written on the label not F5-L or F5-G etc. MM have a certain build quality like the Loars of old, like hide glue is used, better controlled carving and testing, special woods like Adirondack-Red spruce tops and Varnish finish. Unless specified all the lower end Gibby's have Sitka tops! Experts, please correct me if I'm wrong.

  3. #3

    Default Re: MasterModel

    I think for some folks who aren’t really sure they just copy what is on the label…. for some it is a way to imply a higher level than it is. Gotta be careful when viewing those ads.

  4. #4
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: MasterModel

    There was a long thread about this recently.
    Before WWII, Gibson only used Master Model labels on top of the line instruments. But in the modern era, they have been using them on many of their mandolin models.

    As a result, Gibson's modern era practice of using Master Model labels indiscriminately causes a lot of confusion, and makes the Master Model designation meaningless.

  5. #5
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,874

    Default Re: MasterModel

    There are discussions about the Master Model labels on the Cafe that go back almost two decades. There is an attempt by a former employee to explain it that is as confusing as it is enlightening. That designation is on the label of my 2005 F5G. The problem apparently really raised its head when Gibson decided to release a special high-end mandolin model with the same name a few decades ago. Absent that it's the standard Gibson f hole mandolin label from 1922 except for the gap between 1927 and the late 1970's.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  6. The following members say thank you to MikeEdgerton for this post:


  7. #6
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: MasterModel

    When they only put the labels on the F-5, and there was only one version of an F-5, it meant a lot.

    But since the 1980's, they've used the label on just about every mandolin model they've made, at one time or another. As a result, all the label now means is that the mandolin was made by Gibson.

    A side note: The Mandolin Store has posted a new shopworn F-9, and noted in the listing that "this is the last [new] F-9 we will have."
    FWIW, it appears that the instrument has a Master Model label.

  8. #7
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,874

    Default Re: MasterModel

    The label was on the original A5 and the following variants built after the reawakening in the late 70's. It was never exclusive to the F style body but it apparently was exclusive (on mandolins at least) to the f hole mandolins with the exception of the missing years from 1927 to the late 1970's.

    Further, it was on some or perhaps all of the Flatiron f hole mandolins built after Gibson acquired Flatiron.

    It's been muddy for a long time.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  9. #8
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: MasterModel

    The pre-war appearances of the label were on the following models: F-5, H-5, K-5, L-5, TL [tenor lute], and the single known pre-war A-5.
    Since at least the 1970's, it can appear on darn near any mandolin family instrument.

  10. #9
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,874

    Default Re: MasterModel

    Has anyone got a copy of an F5 with a Master Model label built in the 30's? I was under the impression they stopped using that label in 1927 not at the beginning of WWII. Your list is more than mandolin family instruments so at least they stopped putting them on guitars. I can't locate a full label shot in the Mandolin Archive or at least I haven't yet.

    I could be wrong about this, I could be thinking of the signature label.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  11. #10
    Mando accumulator allenhopkins's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Rochester NY 14610
    Posts
    17,378

    Default Re: MasterModel

    Yeah, I've a tenor lute with the "Master Model" label. Could it have been introduced at Lloyd Loar's initiative, since it seems to be mainly used for the "-5" models he designed? L-5 guitars were also labeled "Master Model," and of course there was a separate but complementary "Mastertone" label on higher-end Gibson banjos.
    Allen Hopkins
    Gibsn: '54 F5 3pt F2 A-N Custm K1 m'cello
    Natl Triolian Dobro mando
    Victoria b-back Merrill alumnm b-back
    H-O mandolinetto
    Stradolin Vega banjolin
    Sobell'dola Washburn b-back'dola
    Eastmn: 615'dola 805 m'cello
    Flatiron 3K OM

  12. #11
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Sugar Grove,PA
    Posts
    3,371
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: MasterModel

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Has anyone got a copy of an F5 with a Master Model label built in the 30's? I was under the impression they stopped using that label in 1927 not at the beginning of WWII. Your list is more than mandolin family instruments so at least they stopped putting them on guitars. I can't locate a full label shot in the Mandolin Archive or at least I haven't yet.

    I could be wrong about this, I could be thinking of the signature label.
    I had a 28 Fern with a MM label just like a Loar, I forget the cutoff date but my 34 Fern I had, had a Guarantee label!

  13. The following members say thank you to William Smith for this post:


  14. #12
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,874

    Default Re: MasterModel

    Quote Originally Posted by William Smith View Post
    I had a 28 Fern with a MM label just like a Loar, I forget the cutoff date but my 34 Fern I had, had a Guarantee label!
    Your 28 could have been built the year before. Those transition years and the unsigned Loars have always been troublesome.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  15. #13
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: MasterModel

    I don't know exactly when before WWII the label was last used.
    My older Gruhn's Guide says 1927, but new info may have come to light since the book was printed. And Gibson was haphazard about lots of things in the old days.

  16. #14
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Sugar Grove,PA
    Posts
    3,371
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: MasterModel

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Your 28 could have been built the year before. Those transition years and the unsigned Loars have always been troublesome.
    Yes, as it had the same FON# as Bobby Osborne's Fern but earlier serial # and his was known for years to be a 1926? But then with Spann's guide they seem to be 1928?

  17. #15
    Registered User Hendrik Ahrend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Leer, Northern Germany
    Posts
    1,554

    Default Re: MasterModel

    Quote Originally Posted by William Smith View Post
    Yes, as it had the same FON# as Bobby Osborne's Fern but earlier serial # and his was known for years to be a 1926? But then with Spann's guide they seem to be 1928?
    The '28 Fern in question is #83793. (I happen to be its current proud caretaker.) According to the Mandolin Archive, first appearance of the "Guarantee" label is on #84685, which is a 1929 F5. In Gibson's 1930 catalogue (which BTW didn't have a designated letter, but could be catalogue "S") the F5 was only called "Gibson Master Mandolin".

    Here's what the late Charlie Derrington had to say about Gibson's current nomenclature about 20 years ago (https://www.mandozine.com/media/CGOW/derrington.html):

    The reason all Gibson mandolins have the Master Model label is a bit cumbersome to explain. But I'll certainly give it a try.

    Gibson invented the F-5. The Master Model instruments originally included the H-5, L-5, F-5, and K-5. Of course the H-5 and K-5 were dropped from the line and the L-5 followed a different evolutionary path.

    I think what I'm trying to say is Gibson has a long history of producing the F-5 Master Model. The Loars were Master Models as were the Ferns of the 20s. Our high-end mandolins have a tradition of having that Master Model line label designation. It is historically correct to have that label in every F-5 style instrument we build. Really, would you be happy if your Fern didn't have the historically correct label?

    I know it is a bit confusing to have a Master Model line and a Master Model. But, that is the historically correct thing to do. I know there would have been much unhappiness with our customers and dealers if we didn't have the correct label in all of our mandolins and all of our mandolins trace their history back to one model. The alternative would be to have historically incorrect labels in all of our mandolins save one. I think it is quite easy to remember if you look on the label for the model designation (and not on the printed portion of the label) it will be quite easy to tell the difference. Also remember, unless I personally sign the upper label, it's not a Master Model.

    The only other alternative would be to produce only one model of mandolin which, I think we would all agree, wouldn't be feasible.

    Whew!! I hope that answer will suffice.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hendrik Ahrend For This Useful Post:


  19. #16
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Howell, NJ
    Posts
    26,874

    Default Re: MasterModel

    It still comes down to the fact that Gibson introduced that model they called the Master Model circa 2000 or a little after. Minus that there wouldn't be a problem
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  20. #17
    Teacher, repair person
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Location
    Southeast Tennessee
    Posts
    4,078

    Default Re: MasterModel

    I was going to say something about the significance of names, and the concept of consistency, and marketing, and stuff like that, but I think I'll just sign off and get some dinner . . .

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •