Spruce-different species

[pelone]

Are Carpathian Spruce and Norway Spruce the same critter? I received a nice top set marked as Carpathian----is this equivalent to European Spruce?

[Bill McCall]

Yes.

Google is your friend.

[HoGo]

Yes, Norway spruce is common english name for picea abies which grows in all mountains or colder clomates of central and east europe. It's pretty much the only commercially available spruce local in EU. The range consists of three main parts - one is the Alps, second is the Carpathians and third is the northern colder parts of europe - mostly Latvia/ Lithuania/Estonia/Belorussia/ Finland/Sweden and east of Russia (ironically Norway doesn't contain much of the range). Some may say that there are noticeable differences in wood between these parts but I doubt it.
One difference is that spruce from the northern regions is often smaller and knotty (used for indoor panelling as "nordic spruce" around here) so most of the tonewood is sourced from Alps or Carpathians...

[musicofanatic]

There must be a published list of cute phrases for use on internet forums...

[Richard Mott]

An important point to remember is that the “species” of European spruce—Picea abies—is a biological term. Thus Carpathian, German, Norwegian, Swiss etc. spruces are the same organism from a botanist’s perspective. But a luthier’s perspective is different, since as a building material there can be important differences in density, stiffness, hardness, and appearance depending on where Picea abies is grown. That *can* be a factor based loosely on country, though more important factors include latitude and elevation that determine the length of the growing season. At least some of the Carpathian spruce imported into the U.S. during the early Aughts appeared and sounded fairly distinctive, with wide grain and and a pretty aggressive sound—perhaps a result of where it was grown and cut. At least one well-known mandolin builder distinguishes between Italian spruce and other Euro spruces. Which is to say that country of origin isn’t entirely meaningless, but growing conditions play the larger role, and the “species” is Picea abies across the board (pun!).

[sunburst]

An important point to remember is that the “species” of European spruce—Picea abies—is a biological term. Thus Carpathian, German, Norwegian, Swiss etc. spruces are the same organism from a botanist’s perspective. But a luthier’s perspective is different, since as a building material there can be important differences in density, stiffness, hardness, and appearance depending on where Picea abies is grown. That *can* be a factor based loosely on country, though more important factors include latitude and elevation that determine the length of the growing season. At least some of the Carpathian spruce imported into the U.S. during the early Aughts appeared and sounded fairly distinctive, with wide grain and and a pretty aggressive sound—perhaps a result of where it was grown and cut. At least one well-known mandolin builder distinguishes between Italian spruce and other Euro spruces. Which is to say that country of origin isn’t entirely meaningless, but growing conditions play the larger role, and the “species” is Picea abies across the board (pun!).

Growing conditions can affect how trees grow, but when it comes to wood for instrument building, it comes down to the individual piece of wood and it's characteristics. There is so much variation from tree to tree that many of us hesitate to generalize about wood from specific countries, specific elevation or latitude. Two trees can grow within feet of one another and yield wood that is completely different in terms of the things that are important to the luthier: density, longitudinal stiffness, latitudinal stiffness, grain run out, internal damping, and appearance.

[Richard Mott]

Sunburst wrote: “There is so much variation from tree to tree that many of us hesitate to generalize about wood from specific countries, specific elevation or latitude. Two trees can grow within feet of one another and yield wood that is completely different in terms of the things that are important to the luthier: density, longitudinal stiffness, latitudinal stiffness, grain run out, internal damping, and appearance.”

100%!

[Bill McCall]

Sunburst wrote: “There is so much variation from tree to tree that many of us hesitate to generalize about wood from specific countries, specific elevation or latitude. Two trees can grow within feet of one another and yield wood that is completely different in terms of the things that are important to the luthier: density, longitudinal stiffness, latitudinal stiffness, grain run out, internal damping, and appearance.”

100%!

Yes, trees vary.

[j. condino]

What?????

No spruce fairies or Loar unicorns and rainbowzzzz?????

"Whole lotta nuthin'....."

[Dan in NH]

Isn’t it good, Norwegian wood.

Yes, Norway spruce is common english name for picea abies which grows in all mountains or colder clomates of central and east europe. It's pretty much the only commercially available spruce local in EU. The range consists of three main parts - one is the Alps, second is the Carpathians and third is the northern colder parts of europe - mostly Latvia/ Lithuania/Estonia/Belorussia/ Finland/Sweden and east of Russia (ironically Norway doesn't contain much of the range). Some may say that there are noticeable differences in wood between these parts but I doubt it.
One difference is that spruce from the northern regions is often smaller and knotty (used for indoor panelling as "nordic spruce" around here) so most of the tonewood is sourced from Alps or Carpathians...

[Dan in NH]

And now that I’ve made the obvious joke, and quite astonished that no one got to it before I did, the three types of spruce that I am aware of are Sitka spruce, Adirondack spruce a.k.a. red spruce, and Engleman spruce.

How did those three fit into the “European spruce” spectrum?

[Bill McCall]

37 species of spruce. All those mentioned are separate species.

[HoGo]

And all those spruce species (the 37 real species, not just local names) do overlap in their various properties so the only way to be certain what spruce wood you have in hand is to see the tree when it was felled. Some of those species are pretty hard to tell apart even when you see the living tree.

[Dan in NH]

I was thinking more tonally.

[HoGo]

I was thinking more tonally.

So was I. :-)

Actually how can you attribute some tone features to one species or even local variety when you cannot tell them apart under microscope?
Tone is result of hundred other MORE important factors so the exact species and origin of spruce is somewhere on the very end of the list (if it even should be listed at all). You can have heavy and stiff European spruce and soft and light Sitka or red spruce or light and stif or any combination imaginable in any of the species or origins and that is what counts. The overlap is wide and any generalization about species is meaningless.

[Richard Mott]

It’s probably most accurate to say that a piece of spruce sounds primarily like its density, stiffness, hardness etc. would indicate rather than its species. But there are physical generalizations among species that appear to hold—e.g., Adirondack tends to be denser and harder than Engelmann. And Engelmann is said to weigh and sound closer to Euro. But at the end of the day, if you could know either the physical properties of a given piece of spruce, or its species, and you were trying predict its sound, it’s pretty clear you’d rather know its density, stiffness, etc. than its species.

[j. condino]

Speed of sound, density, flexibility, radiation ratio= important.

Names= nothing.

I once bought a board of "German spruce" from a well know US seller.

When it arrived, it had the sellers markings, the German ones, and some subtle notes I recognized from a friend of mine who had cut it in as Engleman spruce the 1980s on the western slopes of Colorado.

A few years later, I had a customer who went through all of my wood stacks and claimed sitka was all wrong, he hated Engleman, but this piece of double labeled (sitting in with a pile labeled red spruce) was exactly what he wanted his mandolin made from because he knew it was the one from reading all about it on the mandolincafe...

I agreed and told him he made a great choice!

[John Arnold]

With the caveat that there are a wide range of properties within each species, these are my observations of average samples:

Low density and high stiffness are good.

Density, low to high:
Engelmann (note the correct spelling)
Euro
Sitka, Red

Stiffness along the grain, low to high:
Engelmann
Sitka
Euro
Red

Cross-grain stiffness, low to high:
Sitka
Engelmann
Euro
Red

Sitka has noticeably higher damping than the other spruces. It also has very different working properties. It can be very tough and stringy to carve or rout for rosettes and bindings. It is by far the worst about fuzzing when router bits are not razor sharp. In addition, the medullary rays and resin canals are noticeably larger than those features in other spruces.

Because of the low density combined with lower stiffness, Engelmann works best when the soundboards are made thicker. Because stiffness varies with the cube of thickness, a slightly thicker Engelmann top may outperform a Sitka or red spruce top.

Euro spruce has the highest specific stiffness (stiffness per unit density), which translates to the highest speed of sound. That indicates that it should be the best in terms of response or efficiency of sound production. My main complaint with Euro spruce is the light weight can amplify string noise.

Sitka and red spruce are very close in terms of stiffness along the grain and density. But the higher cross-grain stiffness and lower damping of red spruce means that the sound tends to have more clarity than Sitka. More cross-grain stiffness also increases headroom.

[Cameronium]

i was literaly singing the song as i read it! That was pretty good!