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Thread: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instructive

  1. #1

    Default No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instructive



    I came across this the yesterday and remembered a discussion with a guitarist friend about the importance of getting the fingertips in exactly the right spot re the fret. Apart from the non-standard fret positions this guitar has two frets for some notes - presumably to allow for modulations - or even perhaps just for the specific notes and modulations that occur in this particular piece ( the frets are apparently adjustable) or could it even be that the strings themselves are not tuned EADGBE?. I can't see the pattern with the notes with two frets. Maybe someone brighter than me can explain?

    But even leaving aside the extraordinary virtuosity, I just can't get over how beautiful this tuning sounds on guitar. Interesting that this a Bach piece and that Bach is generally credited with starting the process that ended in our modern equal temperament tuning - which this performance very definitely isn't in.

    While I kind of understand the theory of this stuff, in practice I can rarely hear whether a piece is played in one of the non-standard temperaments (the exception being the - to me at least - almost unbearable barber shop tuning). This seems to be something called Kirnberger III - whatever - it's a revelation.

    Can't imagine a mandolin fretboard working quite like that though - fret spacings too close together?
    Last edited by des; Oct-26-2022 at 6:04am. Reason: accuracy

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  3. #2
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    Beautifully played on a quality guitar, but I can't help but wonder if it would sound just as good with regular fretwork?

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  5. #3

    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    Making this guitar on commission must be a luthier's nightmare.

  6. #4

    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    That's a fair question and it deserves two answers.

    Short answer - no it wouldn't sound as good.

    Second answer (more respectful and I apologise for the length) - when I heard this first two things struck me - firstly that I couldn't hear any strangeness or anomalies in the intonation (looking at that fretboard I wasn't expecting it to sound so comfortable) - and second that what distinguishes it is a quite extraordinary resonance, almost more like the sustain of a harpsichord rather than of a guitar.

    There are at least 20 guitar versions of this on YouTube (also countless violinists and even one or two mandolin versions). What sets this guitar version apart from all the other guitar versions (even ones performed in echoing church spaces) is that ringing resonance - check it out. This resonance is something that I associate with the really great violinists, violists and cellists - for example try Hilary Hahn's version of this piece.

    But where the resonance really comes into its own, and where I can really hear it, is with the classical string quartet tradition- and this is what distinguishes this specific piece - it has just that extraordinary resonance.

    I'm not sure, but I suspect there is also touch of it in some folk music traditions such as the Irish Sliabh Luachra fiddlers and the Swedish Gånglåt fiddle groups. But with these - and I'm open to correction (I wish my ears were better) - the intonation is just that little bit strange - unlike the very comfortable Kirnberger III temperament in the posted piece.

    There is a very pragmatic explanation for this which has to with sympathetic resonance of harmonic partial notes in other strings than the one on which the note is being struck. Normal fret spacing tends to cancel this effect out. It's easily seen on guitar with the discrepancy between the location and intonation of fret 4 and the major 3rd natural harmonic that sits just behind it. Just the compare locations of 12th fret and 7th fret and their associated natural harmonics.

    This particular fret placement was set up to maximise the resonance effect for the key that this piece is in (Dmin) and, I suspect, also for the related keys and modes it moves in and out of. There are very exact mathematical reasons for all this, but it would tedious to set it all out here - I was just struck by the practical effect.

    It is worth noting that the guitar here is designed with lengthwise slots below the strings, into which the short frets can be added and moved - the one under the G-string is conspicuous in the video. The snag for modern music is that the frets would need to be reset with each, or a least most, key changes. How making that fretboard might work for a luthier is quite beyond me.

    Which brings me back to my original question - what's with the notes that have two frets? Anybody out there who really understands this stuff? The more I write the more I'm getting imposter syndrome .....

  7. #5

    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    Lots of info available on YT


  8. #6
    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    Quote Originally Posted by des View Post
    Which brings me back to my original question - what's with the notes that have two frets? Anybody out there who really understands this stuff? The more I write the more I'm getting imposter syndrome .....
    I don't pretend to understand this either, but I believe that for some pieces a Bb and an A# would not be quite the same note: it depends on context, and that's why you have two closely spaced frets.

  9. #7
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    Thoroughly confusing to watch but pleasing to listen. Plus the guy plays lefty on top of that. Yikes!

    I wonder if he has a different guitar or interchangeable fretboard for each key.
    Jim

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    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    I would not want to do the fret job on that. It would take forever and cost an arm and a leg. I think there could be laws against that guitar in several states. ��
    Have a Great Day!
    Joe Vest

  11. #9

    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    If those are EVO frets, that, along with nylon strings, might kick the refret [cost/worry] can a long ways down the road. But the actual construction? Madness... (On closer look, it appears the whole fingerboard is made up of many pieces. I guess that makes some things easier... link in longer description at YT https://www.microtonalguitar.org)
    2018 Kentucky KM-950, 2017 Ellis A5 Deluxe

  12. #10
    Registered User J.C. Bryant's Avatar
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    Default Re: No Mandolin content but extraordinarily beautiful and instruc

    It looks, to me, like the strings or over a groove in which the fret can be moved as preferred.

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