violin buying question to you trusted cafe goers (NMC)

[DougC]

Unfortunately there is a lot of ignorance regarding the world of violins. I should say fiddles because that is the casual name for folk violinists. People apply the considerable knowledge of guitars and plucked instruments to the violin and they are just different. Different enough and similar enough to create a lot of assumptions, biases and attitudes. And I wonder why someone is asking mandolin folks about violins...Go ask violin specialists. O.K. that's a bit harsh. A lot of folks play both. One thing I will say is that it is easy to strum a guitar or pluck a few notes on a mandolin and sound is very good. Violins require a certain touch with a bow to get a good sound. Usually the sound is awful. So it is very hard to determine quality; so the OP asks for good reason!
The world of manufacturing commercial instruments at least tries to supply a product of average quality. So I'd say yea, get the Eastman VL305 along with a Coda Bow and know you've got a decent starting point. Anything else is like buying a used car.

[Cary Fagan]

DougC, I asked here because I know there are a lot of mandolin players who are also fiddlers. I have enjoyed the responses, not thinking they were expert advice but players' opinions. I wasn't on any fiddle forums (though now I am, thanks to a post here--see!). That being said, my intention originally was to do just what you said, knowing that I couldn't go too wrong with an Eastman. (Only I'm not prepared to pay 1600.00 Canadian for a VL305 at the moment, nicer though they are.) Then this old fiddle came up. I was leaning towards it but now I'm concerned by the low bridge. I'm going to play them both some more.

[Bruce Clausen]

This has been a great discussion, Cary, thanks for starting it! Lots of good information and advice, plus a chance for a number of members to share their guilty secrets.

I decided ten or twelve years ago (in my sixties) that it was time to take up the violin. Went to the big Long & McQuade store in Vancouver, where they have a big room full of fiddles, bows and accessories, with a door that closes. Even though I couldn't play at all yet, I holed up in there and tried stuff out. Then rented, for $30 a month, a decent old handmade fiddle (unknown local maker) and a nice new French bow. Found a local repairman who had a number of violins for sale, and took away for trial a very solid Mittenwald violin from 1907 plus a few bows. Was then able to spend a week or so comparing violins and bows at home, thanks to the very helpful policies of the store and the repairman. Bought the Mittenwald and the French bow, got some lessons, joined an extrememly forgiving community string orchestra. I'm still a pathetic player, but have by now played in several classical ensembles, and am beginning to work on fiddle tunes.

Sounds like you are doing everything right, Cary. Welcome to the quest, and good luck with it!

[catmandu2]

One thing I've just noticed is that the neck angle on the fiddle is less than standard. As a result the bridge stands at about 29mm when standard is 33. Does that seem like a problem?

Typical of all neck-strung instruments, bridge height is reduced to compensate for the gradual movement of the neck over time, until a full neck reset is undertaken. For an old-time fiddle, this can be ok: of course you wouldn't want it for a high-performance concert instrument where you want full capacity, volume, etc; the lessened pressure on the top from a reduced bridge height typically produces a somewhat softer, mellower tone - perhaps even preferred in some contexts (early violins don't have the more acute geometry of modern violins). It's not going to produce such dramatic differences that jump out at you, as you develop your technique. However, this is a factor when assessing the value of an instrument; as always, you'd have to factor in the cost of a reset when determining value.

[Ranald]

So I'd say yea, get the Eastman VL305 along with a Coda Bow and know you've got a decent starting point. Anything else is like buying a used car.

I do research, then buy quality used cars, drive them not only around the city but on long-distance trips. After many years of service from a car, when maintenance costs get too expensive (usually when the car is about 20 years old), I let it go. To me, buying a new car that loses value as soon as I sign the contract is a mug's game. Clearly, others don't feel the same way. My used-car of a fiddle is running fine after about 150 years of playing, interrupted by long periods of neglect, but kept up by occasional maintenance. There are dozens of reasons why comparing the purchase of a fiddle to that of a car doesn't work, not the least of which is that cars have engines that rust and wear out, while violins are made of wood and, except for the cheapest, are designed to last.

[HoGo]

For a fiddle I wouldn't be bothered much about bridge height unless it is way too low to be able to play the outer strings cleanly (that's actually the main reason for high bridge, the tension effect is negligible). My violin's bridge is even a mm lower and it works OK. To correctly asses angle of neck you must check thickness of fingerboard and its curvature. Often after several fingerboard planings the bridge is lowered as well to keep string height and if the board is flatter than (classical) standard then the bridge also will be lower. These old fiddles often have slightly lower bridges and it's easy to have a NY reset done to get a bit higher neck angle if really desirable (which I doubt here).
Just have the fiddle played by some experienced palyers and if the bridge is too low they're going to notice it while playing.

[Mainer73]

Also, if the violin is more highly arched, the bridge will be shorter. If it's very highly arched, it's normal for the neck projection to also be slightly lower. I have an example of one such instrument. Just don't have pics handy at the moment.

[DougC]

I see that a little knowledge can get you into trouble. There are some aspects of violin knowledge here that are good and true, if a bit shallow and overlooking some fundamentals. But on the whole, earnest efforts to help. One can be quite happy with a functional old fiddle. (I was). But becoming a amateur violin luthier over the last 30 years has taught me that you can't explain the mysteries of violins in a nutshell.
My first violin was bought with the help of a violinist from the St. Louis Symphony. $600 bucks and $300 for the bow. That was probably as expensive as a good guitar back then. But my friend from the orchestra knew what to look for and I'd been happy with the fiddle for a number of years.

[Mainer73]

I don't think anyone is trying to fully explain the mechanics or mysteries. Internet forums are a little focused to the specific question at hand and by nature constrained/simplistic. I think you'll find that the underlying message is that consulting a professional violin luthier is ultimately the best course. But having some questions answered ahead of time can help guide that.

[HoGo]

There are many luthiers who understand the old time fiddlers' needs and can evaluate accordingly. Some luthiers are extremely classically focused and that sets their only standard.

[DougC]

There are many luthiers who understand the old time fiddlers' needs and can evaluate accordingly. Some luthiers are extremely classically focused and that sets their only standard.

Yep, but it looks like a bit of an attitude there. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'only standard'. (But I have a VERY good idea...). The 'folklore' part of fiddle 'set up's' is based more on 'it is right because so and so did it that way'. I'm not going to try to challenge that notion.

"Having some answers ahead of time" would be, to make sure the pegs work, the end pin fits snug and the strings are not too high.

I agree with Mainer73. (next post)
A good 'way to go' is to get an old fiddle that is the best you can find. And then spend a few bucks at a luthier. Much like bringing your used car to the mechanic for a consult.

As for a bow. Spend the money now on a well respected bow company like CodaBow. (You will spend money on bows: either now, or later. Why have three bows that don't work?)

[Mainer73]

I do research, then buy quality used cars, drive them not only around the city but on long-distance trips. After many years of service from a car, when maintenance costs get too expensive (usually when the car is about 20 years old), I let it go. To me, buying a new car that loses value as soon as I sign the contract is a mug's game. Clearly, others don't feel the same way. My used-car of a fiddle is running fine after about 150 years of playing, interrupted by long periods of neglect, but kept up by occasional maintenance. There are dozens of reasons why comparing the purchase of a fiddle to that of a car doesn't work, not the least of which is that cars have engines that rust and wear out, while violins are made of wood and, except for the cheapest, are designed to last.

Agreed. There are plenty of well-vetted used violins that one can buy without concern and would probably be a better purchase long-term than the Eastman and a plastic bow (not there's anything WRONG with that approach, you just end up spending more money in the long run-ask me how I know). My 100 plus year old Mirecourt-made violin plays circles around and has gobs more tone than any Eastman at that price point, and it cost a lot less. The analogy is perplexing to me because it's well known in violin circles that it's quite easy to find superior instruments at an affordable price point when you look beyond new manufacture. You certainly will get a decent instrument with the Eastman, but it's just not true that buying used is that dodgy. Unless you choose to do everything wrong...then we can't help

[Cary Fagan]

So I took the fiddle to my jam last night and a couple of fiddlers tried it out. They both liked it just fine and it sounded great when they played it. Said it had the right sound for the music. . Neither noticed the lower neck angle until I pointed it out.

I had fun playing a few tunes. I'm at that stage (I remember from early mandolin days) when I'm better at home than in a jam, partly out of being too tentative. But I took some simple song breaks and I can see that playing a few on the fiddle each jam will help me to progress (and gain courage).

I've written to my friend about the fiddle. So I am waiting for her response, hoping she'll sell it to me. If not, I know there are other fiddles out there.

[DougC]

Great news Cary. I suppose your friend had a good bow too.

[Jim Garber]

Cary: you will see as you progress whether the neck angle will affect your playing. If it does then you can have the work done or possibly by them you may want to upgrade from that fiddle.

I started on an old German unlabeled one that I bought for $25 from a junk shop near my house in college. I probably spent that amount again having a shop set it up for me (this was ~50 years ago). Then from time to time as my playing progressed I bought another fiddle and gave that one to a friend who was just starting. Serial monogamy with various fiddle through the years until I got the ones I play now.

As far as different setups for classical vs. old time (or other trad genres). Usually the fiddles I would try had at least Dominant strings and I usually played steel core usually Thomastik RopeCore strings. So I never could get a real sense of a violin until I restrung it. Later I decided to get used to the synthetic gut sound and feel and the classical set up. And I largely was a playing OT for most of the playing life. I am not recommending that for everyone. Some of my friends who are excellent OT players use Helicore or other similar steel strings. And many have flattened bridges. You get used to what you get used to and what works for you. But all that can change. It is a long time process and in many ways closing in on 50 years of playing I still, in some areas, consider myself a beginner wait here room to grow.

One other bit of unsolicited advice: jams are fine but I found it also helped me especially in the beginning stages to get together and woodshed with other folks, maybe working on slowing down tune and working on details of bowing and phrasing. Very valuable and I am still doing that with a couple of other old guys on a regular basis. I have been diving deeply into Québécois and other French Canadian tunes and we work almost weekly on those with these friends.

[Cary Fagan]

Thanks for the advice, Jim. I have fiddler friends who get together to work on tunes. Maybe one day when I'm good enough not to ruin it for them, if that day comes. And yes, if for some reason the fiddle holds me back I'll get it worked on or get another. But my hope is to stick with it. At this point I like to be long-term friends with my instruments. My two good mandolins and I know each other well, my Regal tenor understands me, too. I hope to have that feeling with the fiddle.


The other day one of the fiddlers sent a video around to the other fiddlers in our jam. I was just happy to be included!

[Jim Garber]

When I was first starting I played with others at my level and took lessons from the better players/teachers. I remember three or four of us scratching away at slow tempi.

[Cary Fagan]

Well, my friend was glad to sell me the fiddle. I spent a happy half hour playing this morning. Glad it's settled. And I had an email from a jamming friend who's been fiddling for a couple of years and wants to get together. The obsession deepens...

[catmandu2]

Congratulations! There are basically three primary experiences in instrumental playing: plucking/drumming, bowing and blowing. Each is a disparate world of its own. But in terms of 'singing' on the instrument, the latter two have immense advantages.

I advocate for (everyone) studying at least one instrument from each family, as there is of course 'nothing like' each one.

[Harley Marty]

Hi Cary,
I have an Eastman VL100 that I purchased used for $200 and I am very pleased with the sound. I don't think you could go wrong with the VL305. I am 64 and have been fiddling with the fiddle for a long time, but not that seriously. I too am thinking about upping my game now that I have retired. If you want an interesting read about learning to play in the latter years, try " A Thousand Mornings of Music: The Journal of an Obsession with the Violin" by Arnold Gingrich (late editor of Esquire magazine). It is truly a fascinating read. The book was given to me by a neighbor about 40 years ago. She saw me playing on the front porch and her husband had been the violin instructor at the nearby college and gave this book to all of his students. I still read it every several years. It is available on Amazon.

Thank you Barry for this post I received my copy of ‘A Thousand Mornings Of Music’ today. I’m looking forward to reading it over the Christmas break.

[LadysSolo]

I just started reading this thread (and will continue to the end,) but as an older (67 years old) person who started violin at roughly age 60, my significant other gave me a "beginner" violin for Christmas. Now, I'll never part with it because it was given to me to help me realize a dream/goal, but it's not a quality instrument, nor is the bow. We some months later went to a farm auction, and there was a violin for auction there. One of the sellers played the violin for a few minutes, and I was hooked on it, and I was buying it. Cost me $150, and well-spent. I tried the bow from the auction violin on my beginner violin, and it made the cheap violin sound much better. So don't overlook what a better bow can do for your instrument.

[maxr]

Unfortunately there is a lot of ignorance regarding the world of violins...

I've always found the lack of interest in violins among violinists quite surprising. I can understand a weekend fiddler just liking his fiddle and not being too concerned about the technical details or how to make a different sound. However, I'm probably not the only one here to have met professional classical violinists who don't seem be interested in whether the instruments they make a living from could sound better with a change of strings, or a small adjustment of the bridge feet or the soundpost. Many of these folks will practice five hours a day to get a better sound - and that sound is sometimes waiting for them inside the violin if only they took it to a good luthier and asked him to set it up well then spend an hour adjusting things with him. A surprising number aren't much interested in different shape violins (belly depth, width, length...) making different sounds, I think a higher proportion of e.g. guitarists take an interest in that kind of thing - never mind mandolinists .

[Jim Garber]

That is interesting, Max. My impression is just the opposite. I hear of violinists who seek out the best strings even putting a different brand for each string in an effort to maximize their instruments to give them the sound they want. In addition there is the minutiae of adjustments that either the player or a luthier can provide. All that plus interest in ultimate bow or multiple bows for different music or situations. Otherwise why do people bother spending thousands or hundreds of thousands for top flight instruments if they were not interested in optimizing their sound?

BTW I have been listening to a wonderful podcast for last months. It is called Rosin the Bow and it consists of interviews with a wide range of people involved with the violin: violinists, fiddlers, violin makers, bow makers, string makers, etc. I highly recommend it.

[Cary Fagan]

Thanks for the tip about the podcast, Jim. I was just listening in the car...

[Jim Garber]

Very inspiring from almost every interview I listened to.