Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

[journeybear]

But, again, that's not what this thread is about. Devil's Dream is not a song but is a fiddle tune and it is notated here in its actual, traditional, key albeit without key signature.

Exactly. Well, I think it's better to say, instead of "without key signature," "without the correct key signature." A key is indicated, but it is the wrong one, the default key signature of C. Some people here have been getting distracted by tangential considerations, perhaps abetted by interpretations of the OP's somewhat awkwardly-phrased title. The example presented is sheet music of a tune in the key of A but written in the key of C with accidentals to put it in A. It starts and ends on the A note; it employs the A major scale. But the key of A is not indicated as is customary, with three sharps at the left end of the staves. Put it plainly and simply: that is poor notation.

BTW, I do not have a direct answer for the OP's title question, but it may well be phrased thus as a rhetorical device. I don't know how often similar incidences occur and so hesitate to weigh in on a generalization, but will cheerfully (mostly) discuss specific cases.

[Charlie Bernstein]

But, again, that's not what this thread is about. Devil's Dream is not a song but is a fiddle tune and it is notated here in its actual, traditional, key of A major albeit without key signature. Luckily, there are not outside, non-scale, notes, such as flatted sevenths or thirds, in this tune. . . .

Fair enough! It's not the first time a theory thread has gone over my head.

All I meant is that, even when there are no words, melodies and progressions can be played in any key. I often change the key of a song to accommodate another instrument. For instance, I have a friend who has a concertina, and he can get the most out of it in G. I don't know whether the limitation is him or the concertina, but that doesn't matter. The point is, the tunes sound the same in G as they did in their original keys.

So I still see the sense of just writing in the sharpless, flatless key of C and letting players transpose to suit the occasion. If the song is traditionally played in G, play it in G.

Some composers say that each key has its own character. I don't hear it. (Now excuse me while I duck and cover. Here comes that theory whooshing over my head again. . . .)

[journeybear]

No need to duck. Well, maybe just sidestep a skosh.

In this example, if the intent were to write it in C, then it should start and end on C, not A. If the intent were to write it in A, then the custom of notating the key of A with three sharps should be used. This is neither, and thus the OP's alarm pinged.

Yes, a tune can be written in any key, depending on the transcriber's druthers. Even if a tune is usually done in A, it doesn't have to be transcribed that way. "Devil's Dream," like so many fiddle tunes, is customarily played in A, because it fits so well on violin strings in that key. That doesn't necessarily mean it's "in that key," but because it's customarily played in that key, someone calling it at a session or a hootenanny or such will just say "Devil's Dream," and everyone familiar with the tune will assume it's in A, unless he calls a different key.

I might have spent more time talking about the tune here than playing it in my life but I'm just trying to get this all settled just right.

[Charlie Bernstein]

. . . I might have spent more time talking about the tune here than playing it in my life but I'm just trying to get this all settled just right.

Done and done!

[CarlM]

In this example, if the intent were to write it in C, then it should start and end on C, not A.

This is a fair statement for this particular tune but just to be clear songs or tunes do not necessarily start on the note for the key they are in. Probably more start on other notes than start on the root.

They usually end on the root note of the key in the large majority of cases but even that is not 100 percent. They do not even necessarily start on the root chord. For traditional and bluegrass music it is mostly true but there are enough significant exceptions that you cannot depend on it. The ending chord, like the ending note is most of the times the root but not always.

The more I learn about music I have a harder time defining clearly what a key is in words, though like the famous court ruling about pornography, I know it when I see it

[journeybear]

Just to be clear, bringing into the discussion other tunes doesn't necessarily make things clearer, but may indeed muddy the waters. As I said, in order to focus on the problem the OP noted:

"IN THIS EXAMPLE"

Please and thank you.

[Drew Egerton]

Maybe to emphasize the fact that those C notes should be C# in the key of A. Maybe because "Glen Allen" didn't know how to change the key on the software and Mike didn't have time to redo it.

Mike teaches hundreds, if not thousands, of tunes on Artistworks. There are over 1300 files in the "additional study materials section" alone, which doesn't even count what is in the curriculum. Don't sweat the small stuff. The great thing is, you can send in a video to Mike and ask him the question directly instead of getting 30 replies from other people giving their own opinions.

[Simon DS]

Well I think that… it’s an interesting discussion.
I probably wouldn’t have included where I’d found the typo mainly because it distracts from what’s important - a nice dive into mode theory.

What would happen to a tune in G major if you played it in D major. Happens all the time.
And A major, what then?

[Steve Finlay]

Yes, the thread has wandered far from the original question, but we wander in interesting territory.

While it is very common for "conventional" songs to end on the tonic or key note, they often do not start there, as mentioned above. A good proportion start on the fifth, including To Anacreon in Heaven, which Americans call The Star-Spangled Banner. I was once a participant in a Titanic-sized musical disaster caused by this simple fact.

I was at a district-level barbershop convention in Seattle. One of the great joys of a barbershop convention is that you can hear and be part of a hall full of 5000 people who are singing The Star Spangled Banner accurately, with decent vocal technique, and in four part harmony. It is a huge, spine-tingling thrill.

Except this time.

The MC on stage did what is always done to start a barbershop song: He blew the tonic (B flat) on his pitch pipe. Then all four parts are supposed to sing "Aaah" on that note, then split off to their allotted notes in the chord, then start singing. The leads, who sing the melody, start on F.

Except this time.

As we all tried our best to belt out our respective parts, we were not hearing the sounds that we expected. Frowns and looks of puzzlement spread from person to person. Singers attempted to adjust their pitch to find the harmonies that should have been there, and confusion increased. We somehow reached the end, and turned to our neighbours, asking each other "What WAS that?"

What it was, was this: About half of the auditorium (maybe they had not sung the song without accompaniment recently enough) took the B flat not as the tonic, but as the starting note of the melody. This meant that half of us were singing four part harmony in B flat, while the other half were singing four part harmony in E flat. And because barbershoppers are always worried about going flat, a fair number of the B flatters thought they were in the wrong, and started switching to E flat. This pushed "o'er the land of the free" to a pitch a fourth higher than it was supposed to be, causing great misery to both larynxes and ears.

After the final screeches died down, the MC looked quizzically at his pitch pipe and joked: "OK, let's pitch it up a half and do it again."

[Dave Hanson]

Surely if it starts and ends on the note ' A ' with no key signature then it's in A minor.

Dave H

[Mark Gunter]

Surely if it starts and ends on the note ' A ' with no key signature then it's in A minor.

Dave H

Not always true. And especially not if, as in this case, every F, C, and G is sharped.

[newton]

I have this Alan Bibey AcuTab book where the transcribers made the unfortunate decision to put the key of B (5 sharps) solos in the key of A (3 sharps). The rationale was that the solos were often bluesy, with flatted 7ths (A) and flatted 3rds (D). But it ended up that every D# and A#, which are in the key of B, were rendered as accidentals. As a result I didn't think the standard notation transcriptions were usable.

I think issues like this come up a lot because transcribers don't expect mandolin players to read notation, and most of the time I guess they're right.

[Tom Haywood]

In my searches for bluegrass song tabs, I've seen quite a few scores with the notation like the OP posted. I like to create a file in Tabledit in the correct key showing the notation correctly. That's probably because I've read classical music notation for almost 60 years. I'm in the camp that says if you're going to write it in standard notation, then write it correctly. This has led to some debate, especially from the Irish Trad crowd, as to whether a song is actually in a particular key. I don't understand that concept. If there is a reason that the posted tune was written out that way, I'd like to know what it is.

[Ky Slim]

I’ve noticed several songs in the Mike Marshall lesson plan are not written in the proper key. An example is below. It is written in C but is in A. All the sharps have to written in as a result.
Is this common in bluegrass?
Thanks for any insights.

This is not common in bluegrass. The question and this thread have led to some interesting discussion though.

At this point I'm not sure it is accurate to say that "written music" is not common in bluegrass. Written resources of bluegrass notation and/or tab have become very common. There are likely more people learning from written resources and video resources nowadays than are learning by ear.

To the OP: Whether this sheet is conventionally correct or not (it's not) once you lock-in on Devil's Dream you probably won't need to look at the sheet again.

[Jim Bevan]

This has led to some debate, especially from the Irish Trad crowd, as to whether a song is actually in a particular key.

Lots of Irish Trad tunes are hard to pin down when it comes to saying what key they're in because they don't "commit". A tune in "A" might have as many G sharps as it has G naturals, and/or as many C sharps as it has C naturals. Also, some tunes just don't have enough notes – many have no third step at all.

[allenhopkins]

My theory: the Devil's Dream transcription is in the key of C, with the scale notes in the key of A that differ from those in C -- C#, F#, G# -- being written as accidentals, by someone who either was unfamiliar with key signatures, or one who wanted to emphasize to inexperienced musicians that the indicated accidentals showed where the tune differed from the "white keys" (piano reference) of the C scale.

I find in teaching beginning students that those unfamiliar with scales can learn one basic scale, and then assume that the same notes are in all major scales -- that there's a G natural in an A scale, e.g. They generally can hear the proper note when they "do, re, mi" up the scale, but can't intellectually comprehend that different scales have different notes -- due to the fact that intervals between scale notes in our standard Western European method, aren't uniform -- there's a half step between B and C, but a whole step between C and D, one fret vs. two frets, and so on. So there must be a half step between "ti" and "do" on the A major scale, and G natural must be raised to G#. Which is what the transcriber wrote, in his odd way.

Most of us know this instinctually, even if we haven't studied rudimentary theory -- hell, even if we don't read standard notation at all. We learned from experience, not in music school. But those who are starting out may see a note in the first space above the treble staff, and assume it's G natural, even in the key of A. If that's what we play, Devil's Dream will sound more nightmarish.

An old-time banjo player, asked "Do you read music?", replied "Not enough to hurt my pickin'." As pointed out above, lots of folk-based-style mandolinists don't read music at all. I only read it on mandolin enough to puzzle out the transcribed melody or harmony, and then try to commit it to memory. Most of my playing's "by ear" and that's fine. But I've always been glad to have a smattering of music theory -- much of it picked up in middle school -- and it's proved useful fairly frequently.

[journeybear]

My theory: the Devil's Dream transcription is in the key of C, with the scale notes in the key of A that differ from those in C -- C#, F#, G# -- being written as accidentals ...

No! No! No! No! No! It is NOT in C, it is in A. This tune - unlike some others - starts and ends on the tonic, or "Do," if you prefer. In this transcription, those notes are A. If you can sight read and you know the tune, follow it from beginning to end - it starts on A and ends on A. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with the key of C. The transcriber failed to notate the three sharps properly at the start of each staff. So he had to put in all the accidentals individually - which is just plain wrong, wrong, wrong. This is why the correct procedure is to indicate the key as described, so the transcriber needn't follow through the tune as described. The player would understand what key the tune is in and mentally add whatever sharped (or flatted) notes are needed to play correctly, as they would be thus indicated.

People! You're overthinking this. This is an example of a transcriber's error, that's all. Those of you who are trained to see sheet music without any flats and sharps and think the key is C, are being distracted by this knowledge. The transcriber messed up, plain and simple.

Here is an example of a proper transcription. There are a few different notes here and there, but you'll see the high A start and low A end. And the correct notation method for the key signature.

[Tom Haywood]

Yes, I am over-thinking it. That's because yesterday I looked at my folder that has all the tab and notation files I've collected on this tune. I found it written in A and G; I found different chord progressions; and of course I found different melody notes. I wrote a new Tabledit file to reflect what I now think is the "correct" chord progression and the basic melody notes that I prefer on the mandolin. That exercise reminded me that what you pick up on the internet from various teachers for any given song, especially fiddle tunes, is likely to be quite different and confusing. Also, if they wrote it on a software program there is plenty of room for overlooked errors. For instance, listening to the mandolin and typing in the tab in Tabledit without setting the key signature in advance (or later) results in exactly what the OP posted. The software default key is C, and all the notation notes are correct but they are not displayed correctly for the key of A. I don't know what software was used, but I'll guess that somebody didn't go back and set the key signature. They may have decided that it's OK since all the notes are correct. If so, I would say that that was a missed opportunity for good teaching. I don't encourage students to learn to read notation unless they want to. But I do encourage them to have the correct notation printed above any tablature they use for any tune. In time, they develop the rudimentary ability to read notation without much effort, and they gain a good bit of visual learning about music theory.

[Mark Gunter]

Many verbose comments.

I think the most logical explanation for “why” is simple … the transcriber doesn’t understand std notation/key signatures, and he/she wrote tablature into a program that produced std notation in the key of C.

Alternatively, the transcriber merely forgot ​to use the correct key signature (rather than being ignorant of it) and wrote his tab.

[Jim Garber]

I asked where that sample the OP posted was from. I would imagine that Mike would not be happy with it either. The other possibility is that it is not officially connected to anything Mike is doing but this guy just transcribed from Mike.

[FLATROCK HILL]

Reading this thread makes me appreciate Chris Henry's 'by-ear' approach all the more.

[Bill McCall]

I make this mistake when inputting chords into BIAB backing charts. I would suspect that the error correction time for the author caused it to be ignored.

[mandocello8]

confusion, confusion.

1) tune key vs key signature. OP tune is in the key of A (obviously), written down using key signature C (no sharps, no flats). big deal. complain to whodoneit.
2) "song is in the key of X". vocalist's choice which key to sing in. everybody else buys capos and/or learns to play in closed positions.
3) "tune is in the key of X". there are reasons Devil's dream is played in the key of A on fiddle. many tunes have special features and are meant for playing with certain fingering in a certain key. you discover this as you learn the tunes. Dave Wiesler, a respected tunesmith, talks about some of this around 36m mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPWIp10lkYo.

[mbruno]

I know my copy of finger busters have tons of mistakes in the standard notation. Likely this is not intentional but sloppy. I love Mike and his skills are amazing, but I doubt there's any real justification of this other than it was a mistake.

Best guess, someone wrote the tune out for him in a software they didn't understand fully.

As a side note, I have seen songs like salt creek written in D because the G is natural. While I get the idea, it's misleading and a mistake. It's really frustrating to read something notated incorrectly like that. Providing the correct key on sheet music is important for those reading it. That said equally important is the ability for strong players to understand the intent rather than focus on mistakes.

[Jim Bevan]

Some 25–30 years ago, the band I was in backed up Bobby Rydell (Volare). We had lots of horns, 'cuz that's how he rolled, and hand-written big band-style charts.

One medley had a standard key-of-C rock'n'roll tune in it, written in the key of B#. I asked Bobby's musical director (an old friend, actually, we were in a band together when we were pretty young) what the deal was. He's a drummer, he didn't write the charts, and he had no idea.

I told him I have the chops to read in B#, but spending my time hunting for clues as to why instead of rockin' out wasn't helping Bobby's show any.

Still wonder about that...