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Thread: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein View Post
    Fair enough! It's not the first time a theory thread has gone over my head.

    All I meant is that, even when there are no words, melodies and progressions can be played in any key. I often change the key of a song to accommodate another instrument. For instance, I have a friend who has a concertina, and he can get the most out of it in G. I don't know whether the limitation is him or the concertina, but that doesn't matter. The point is, the tunes sound the same in G as they did in their original keys.

    So I still see the sense of just writing in the sharpless, flatless key of C and letting players transpose to suit the occasion. If the song is traditionally played in G, play it in G.

    Some composers say that each key has its own character. I don't hear it. (Now excuse me while I duck and cover. Here comes that theory whooshing over my head again. . . .)
    I see. Let’s apply this principle to (possibly) the last song I transcribed from a recording, Benny Martin’s Fiddler’s Waltz. It’s in several sections in the key of G, with a range of two octaves and a sixth, from the lowest note on the mandolin/violin to the octave on the first string. Since it “can” be played in any key from G to F#, a major seventh higher, it would be wiser to transpose it to the key of C and leave it to the player to
    transpose it back to the desired key.

    Would it?

    Another example is my favorite fiddle tune, Brilliancy (which I recorded with a four-piece BG group in 1969). What attracted me to this tune was the second section, 2 1/2 bars of which are to be played on one string— quite an acrobatic feat in other keys than A (you need the open e)


    These are but two examples of how range and idiomatics limit the choice of key. And, more subtly, several other tunes work best in their “traditional” keys, e.g., by exploiting the special effects offered by open strings. I have written several tunes that rely on such effects, including one in Bb, bouncing off the open d-string.

    Summing up, here IS such a thing as standard or traditional keys, and many times there are musical reasons for sticking to them. You will likely never hear Cheyenne played in other keys than Bb, or Brown County Breakdown in other keys than E and at Ieast Western Swing players certainly prefer Panhandle Rag in E over D (Bluegrass musicians often do not know the melody!)

    Which is not to deny the didactic value of playing tunes in accustomed keys. I do enjoy playing Gold Rush in Bb and St Anne’s Reel in Eb, but nobody will join me, and I will have to sacrifice some of the folksier effects in these tunes

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbruno View Post
    As a side note, I have seen songs like salt creek written in D because the G is natural. While I get the idea, it's misleading and a mistake. It's really frustrating to read something notated incorrectly like that. Providing the correct key on sheet music is important for those reading it. That said equally important is the ability for strong players to understand the intent rather than focus on mistakes.
    When you say “written in D” do you mean with two sharps in the key signature? Because I thought that would be correct for a tune in A mixolydian.

  3. #53

    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbruno View Post
    As a side note, I have seen songs like salt creek written in D because the G is natural. While I get the idea, it's misleading and a mistake. It's really frustrating to read something notated incorrectly like that. Providing the correct key on sheet music is important for those reading it.
    Using two sharps for the key signature for A mixolydian is perfectly acceptable. Modal tunes can be written with the key signature needing the least number of accidentals. Key signatures are already used for more than one relative key. Why not use them also for relative modes?

    Some players would rather use the closest major or minor key signature and add loads of accidentals to the music. Both methods are used and are both correct.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    IMO using the “major key signature” for its relative modes is the correct method.
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Findley View Post
    I just took a look at a few of the scores Mike’s Beginning and Intermediate sections, and I don’t find any mistakes in notation/staff. For me it’s always been just trying to hit the notes with precision and at a decent speed (in the fast ones). I don’t read, but I’m pretty sure if he felt was necessary for teaching a tune, he’d have fixed it. You could also send ArtistWorks a note; they’re a very obliging group of folks in my experience.
    Bill, this example is from the beginner module. I think I may have encountered at least one more. Maybe go back and take a look?

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Jim, yes it is the chart from Mike's class on ArtistWorks, beginner module. Glen is the person who transcribed it. So, whether Mike approved that or not, it looks bad. There was no explanation given by Mike about it.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    ....
    Last edited by David Bellino; Nov-05-2022 at 9:34am. Reason: didn't have the quote

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Joe View Post
    I think the best explanation of reading sheet music as opposed to number charts or playing by ear is that sheet music gives you what the author wanted in great detail and doesn’t leave much room for personal interpretation. The other ways are very open to improv and can offer the opportunity for personal expression. This is not exactly what the post is about, but just another viewpoint.
    The good thing about sheet music and why I am basically complaining about this incorrect chart is this. It allows you to learn a song faster since you don't have to do it by ear, spending a huge amount of time going back and forth, waiting for the video to buffer to where you think you need to be, etc., etc., in order to correct your mistakes. For people who grew up with this music it may be easy because they know the melodies are ingrained. I am new to this genre, so the music, when correct, is quite helpful.
    Regarding the personal interpretation, it is not wrong that it doesn't leave room for personal interpretation because it allows us to understand the intent of the original idea. It is then up to us to interpret his/her notes as we may.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein View Post
    I don't think of songs as having their own designated keys. The key is whatever the singer likes to sing it in.

    So writing the sheet music in C makes perfect sense to me. A tad less scribbling, and singers are free to call the key.

    But reading above, it sounds like maybe bluegrass tunes do have designated keys — what you call "the proper key" in your original post. That would explain why folks have to resort to singing high-lonesome-style — a sound notoriously not found in nature.
    I apologize the word "proper" was not correct as you are the 2nd person to misread my intent, perhaps because you didn't take a close look at the chart. "Proper" in this case would have been using 3 sharps because the song's chords and melody are in A. The 2 sharps show it is in D.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    But, again, that's not what this thread is about. Devil's Dream is not a song but is a fiddle tune and it is notated here in its actual, traditional, key of A major albeit without key signature. Luckily, there are not outside, non-scale, notes, such as flatted sevenths or thirds, in this tune.

    I've seen worse examples. On Banjo Hangout someone once published Earl Scruggs' solo on Doin' My Time in standard, without key signature, to make standard look bad. The song is in the key of B, five sharps, and the omission of signature of course made it much harder to see at a glance which notes were scale notes or not. Also, since Scruggs capoed at the fourth fret, it should have been notated in the key of G.

    Or, better, not notated at all. I do suppose someone with a thorough knowledge of banjo idiomatics could devise some less linear kind of notation, but that would be a waste of time. I once wrote a guitar tune in open G tuning and tried to put it down in notation and the result was probably unreadable to everybody else.
    And that is what makes this issue so troublesome. It should be correct. A student should not have to go to a blog and asking questions about how it's done in this genre, since that is what I thought the issue could be my ignorance. This is a beginner course (though you'd best know quite a bit already). For me this represents poorly on Mike. If he'd have said something about it, ok. But since this isn't the only song like this it is quite frustrating.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Gunter View Post
    Many verbose comments.

    I think the most logical explanation for “why” is simple … the transcriber doesn’t understand std notation/key signatures, and he/she wrote tablature into a program that produced std notation in the key of C.

    Alternatively, the transcriber merely forgot ​to use the correct key signature (rather than being ignorant of it) and wrote his tab.
    I think that this must happen often in the computer age, both Tom Hayward and Ralph Johannsson mention encountering many such errors, and I remember discussing it in a thread with Ralph in the theory section in recent months.

    I write tablature or std notation often into TablEdit and whichever I write, the program attempts to produce the other. The default key for any new sheet is C.

    Other programs I’ve used work in the same manner. I can see how a transcriber might write tablature failing to check for errors in the computer-generated notation. And if the transcriber is ignorant of std notation, or very careless, yet prolific, well … you get the picture.
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bellino View Post
    Jim, yes it is the chart from Mike's class on ArtistWorks, beginner module. Glen is the person who transcribed it. So, whether Mike approved that or not, it looks bad. There was no explanation given by Mike about it.
    Thanks for clarifying that.
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by David L View Post
    Using two sharps for the key signature for A mixolydian is perfectly acceptable. Modal tunes can be written with the key signature needing the least number of accidentals. Key signatures are already used for more than one relative key. Why not use them also for relative modes?

    Some players would rather use the closest major or minor key signature and add loads of accidentals to the music. Both methods are used and are both correct.
    I get the intent but after doing my reviews, I'm wrong that it's wrong - but still feel wrong to me haha. Do three wrongs make it right? haha.

    Either way, it throws me way off - I get that it's "cleaner" on paper - but it's not cleaner in my head when I see that haha.
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    No! No! No! No! No! It is NOT in C, it is in A. This tune - unlike some others - starts and ends on the tonic, or "Do," if you prefer. In this transcription, those notes are A. If you can sight read and you know the tune, follow it from beginning to end - it starts on A and ends on A. It's got nothing whatsoever to do with the key of C. The transcriber failed to notate the three sharps properly at the start of each staff. So he had to put in all the accidentals individually - which is just plain wrong, wrong, wrong. This is why the correct procedure is to indicate the key as described, so the transcriber needn't follow through the tune as described. The player would understand what key the tune is in and mentally add whatever sharped (or flatted) notes are needed to play correctly, as they would be thus indicated.
    J Bear, nothin' you say is wrong. On the other hand, nothin' I said was wrong either. Of course I know Devil's Dream is (usually) played, and notated, in A. But the transcription is in the key of C -- no sharps or flats. Whether this is a "transcriber's error," or whether the transcriber was trying to write the tune out without knowing how to indicate the A key signature on the music notation. or whether he was trying to emphasize that one of the scale notes wasn't a "white keys" C, but rather a C# -- he accurately notated Devil's Dream -- if you were playing it in the key of C. Or at least notating it in the key of C.

    Teaching instruments to beginners, as I sometimes do (currently ukulele), I find that many of them have no idea that the scales associated with the various keys have different notes in them -- that the treble-clef third-space note is a C when in the key of C, but a C# when in the key of A. Writing out a tunes as if they were in the "white keys" key of C, and indicating the deviations from the C scale as accidentals, is a way of showing those deviations and differences. Not the method I would choose -- and I hardly use standard music notation in teaching beginning instrument classes, just teach the different scales and chords associated with various keys. But what I offered as a theory, was that this could be a way to show inexperienced players that they need to play C#, F# & G# when playing Devil's Dream.

    Or not. After all, it's just a theory.
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Again, sir, I must disagree with you. The only thing here that is in the key of C is the sheet music blank. The melody is in A, the scale is A, the first and last notes are notated as A, as they should be, as that is how it is played. There isn't even a C note in the entire transcription, as only C# notes exist. If it were played in the key of C, it would begin and end on C; it does not in this transcription. You are proposing a revisionist misinterpretation of the facts at hand.

    The transcriber messed up. He did not transcribe this as he should have.Thus decrees Occam (or Ockham, if you prefer).

    And it seems clear, he did not put as much thought into this as anyone posting here.
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    [QUOTE=journeybear;1883306]Exactly. Some people here have been getting distracted by tangential considerations, perhaps abetted by interpretations of the OP's somewhat awkwardly-phrased title.

    You are correct after seeing all the hubbub. I had unwittingly phrased it so as to not be clear as to what I was asking.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    It could quite easily have been a music writing exercise, a bit like a dictation exercise while learning a language.

    Exercise: Here’s a blanc template with no sharps or flats, listen to the tune, write down the notes, work out the chords, discuss key/mode possibilities…

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Thank you for your graciousness, David. And for my part, I could also clarify a bit what I was addressing, somewhat obliquely, by the phrase "tangential considerations." Chiefly I meant the lack of a specified key signature, which several who are familiar with such things interpret as the sheet music being set in C, because this is what one is supposed to assume when no sharps or flats are indicated at the left side of the staves. That's not the case here; they are just erroneously omitted, and the transcriber corrected this error erroneously. Thus, this is an example of an instance in which two wrongs do not make a right.
    Last edited by journeybear; Nov-05-2022 at 5:39pm. Reason: clarification
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?



    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    It could quite easily have been a music writing exercise ...
    Not bloody likely. This is not an exercise, but a finished product. The OP specifically stated:

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bellino View Post
    ... in the Mike Marshall lesson plan ...
    BTW, the erroneous work here was missed by the editor, too, if there is one. This never should have published in this form.
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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    [QUOTE=Charlie Bernstein;1883316]So I still see the sense of just writing in the sharpless, flatless key of C and letting players transpose to suit the occasion. If the song is traditionally played in G, play it in G.

    Hi Charlie, there is a reason why it should have been written properly and it is plain to see here in all the back and forth confusion and disagreements. It needed to be written properly (in A) because reading is a language just as melody/chord structure is. That language allows those who read to know certain things may be depended on, important things such as which notes should be played. This also tells us which notes should NOT be played. The problem for a reader is that you simply do not know what to expect will happen as you go along. Going back to the language analogy, the transcriber used the word, "C." Everyone in the room heard "C" and in their heads were confused as to what the conversation was about because it certainly wasn't about "C." The wrong word was used. The wrong key signature was used here. It is the same as the printed language we are reading now. If I use incorrect punctuation you may not know what I'm talking about. I have a friend who writes with NO punctuation. You can't tell when a thought begins, ends, and as a result it often doesn't make sense. We weren't taught to comprehend that way. This chart should not have been posted. Either someone else who knew very little added it in, or Mike was lax about checking his work. Either way, it is, in my uppity opinion (I say uppity because I'm the OP and sort of caused all this),makes it wrong. If it were one occurrence in his Written Materials, ok. But it isn't. It's a sloppy, frustrating lesson. Writing it incorrectly gives the brain more work to do (just as figuring out what my friend is trying to say does) each time you see any of the 3 accidentals in the chart. I'm just thinking of this for the first time, but an "accidental" may equally be called an "incidental." An accidental is something unexpected from the key signature given. An "incidental" (meaning "accompanying, but not a major part of something") is what they are as well. So if I was in A, an example of an accidental, as you know, would be a G natural.
    In this case with the error, we hear "A" musically, but our brains have been told something different. The brain says, I'm not sure what this is, but it sure ain't right. It kind of creates, at my level anyway, of a sort of skipping record - my brain keeps on seeing that same thing over and over and none of it is expected. I hope I've not belabored the point. Forgive me if I have. Cheers.
    Oh, you'd said you see the sense of writing in C but allowing players to transpose it. That creates even more work than what I described, again, at least at my level. Remember, this is a "beginner' module, not an advanced one.
    Last edited by David Bellino; Nov-05-2022 at 5:53pm. Reason: additional info added

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by newton View Post
    When you say “written in D” do you mean with two sharps in the key signature? Because I thought that would be correct for a tune in A mixolydian.
    I don't know if you were joking, but if not, let's remember we are not talking about modes here. We are discussing straight up, simple music using, by and large, 3 chords in mostly all songs.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by allenhopkins View Post
    But what I offered as a theory, was that this could be a way to show inexperienced players that they need to play C#, F# & G# when playing Devil's Dream.

    Or not. After all, it's just a theory.
    It "could be" if it were to have been explained by Mike as such, but it wasn't, so.... You get my drift.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by journeybear View Post
    And it seems clear, he did not put as much thought into this as anyone posting here.
    Boy, JB, I didn't realize that you are prone to understatements! (truer words were never spoken. at least not here! LOL)

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon DS View Post
    It could quite easily have been a music writing exercise, a bit like a dictation exercise while learning a language.
    Simon, it would have been had only the instructor said it was.

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    Default Re: Why are some songs not written in the key they are in?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Bellino View Post
    Boy, JB, I didn't realize that you are prone to understatements!
    Sometimes.
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