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Thread: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

  1. #26
    Registered User William Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Those are seriously gorgeous! Great score indeed.

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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Joe, I am absolutely green with envy. You have hit the trifecta! Do you have alto clef and bass clef friends to play with, or are you proficient in all? The House of Three Lions will be blessed with music.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Ah, yes the joy of clefs. I remember when I primarily played mandola and forced myself to read the C clef and then came across some parts with treble clef notated. It was always amazing to me for some classical string players who can double and read for both violin and viola.

    Anyway I agree that the L&H mandocellos are possibly the best of the vintage ones. BTW I don’t recall what the scale lengths are on the L&H mandola and mandocello. Could you measure yours?
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  7. #29
    Pataphysician Joe Bartl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Louise, treble and bass clefs are fine. I'm hoping the climb to learn C clef will take me only to the lesser Himalayas -- I've purchased Debora Chen's Alto Clef for the Tab-Addicted Mandolist : a Concise Course to help if the oxygen gets thin.

    Jim, L&H scale lengths: mandola is 15 ½"; cello is 26".

  8. #30
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Joe when I transitioned years ago to play mandola I just started reading a bunch of mandola/viola music from our orchestra library. You just have to take your time and dive in. And also remember that the instrument is tuned differently. I would imagine though it you switched back and forth to treble clef/mandolin that might slow your progress. Luckily the viola parts in orchestra music are fairly simple as opposed to first violins or cellos.
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  9. #31

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    I just checked the inside of my L&H Mandocello. It has a scroll, but instead of the label stating Style A, it states Style Spc'l. I don't know what made it Special.
    The number on the label is 10. The stenciled number on the sidewall is 153. I can't seem to get a photo of the inside label with my cell phone. It focuses on the strings. Any ideas on how to get the photo of the label.

  10. #32

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    With respect to reading the bass clef for mandocello.... consider this. It is almost like reading tabulature. Three of strings match lines in the clef. The bottom line of the bass clef is the pair of G strings. The middle line is the pair of D strings and the top line the pair of A strings.
    The C string pair is two lines below the clef. To give you a sense of where you are, middle C is one line above the bass clef.

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  12. #33
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    All mandocellos are special!
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  13. #34
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Bob, For speculation on the meaning of "Special" you might check out this cafe conversation from 2014: Lyon & Healy Brown Face Mandolin.

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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Bob: to photograph the label you have to position the lens of the camera of your cell phone between the strings. You can even rest the phone on top of the strings and move it around until the label looks in focus. You might try doing it outside in the light during the day.

    As for clefs: what you say is true but bass clef in most cases is called an F clef and the scroll of the clef indicates the F note on the 2nd line from the top. The treble clef is the G clef: the curly part indicate a G note on the second line from the bottom of the staff. And the C clef which is movable indicates the C note wherever the line ir space is that is in the middle of the clef.

    Your trick for reading the bass clef is fine for the mandocello but would not work for the double bass or, for that matter, the tuba.

    And as for the Special it might help to post some pics of your mandocello and we can compare it with Joe’s. It is possible that it may have an extended fretboard or some other custom feature.
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    Pataphysician Joe Bartl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    If we can fade back a moment to my original question about serial numbers: Is it possible that the "199" stamped inside is the Style A serial number and the "No. 17" on the label is the 17th Style A mandocello built? Based on the "Pat. Apl'd For" indication on both the pick guard and the tail piece, this would seem to be ca. 1918?

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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Wow - this just may represent the last piece of the puzzle of the Style A-C serial numbers. As I noted earlier, L&H initially separately numbered each Style (A, B, C, mandolas and mandocellos, leading to duplicate numbers on the labels) - before using unique serial numbers for each instrument in these series.

    The inside stamped numbers mentioned in this thread that differ from the handwritten label numbers could represent the actual number of the instrument in the overall total of carved top mandolins made by L&H at the time, in the period before the unique serial numbering system was used. This would mean that Mandocello labeled #17 may have been the 199th carved top instrument manufactured in these series, and Mandocello labeled #10 would be the 153rd.

    This could explain why the later made carved top mandolins had a stamped number that is identical to the number on the label.

    And one more note on the earlier estimated ballpark totals of mandolas and cellos: I also have the impression that the actual total of manufactured instruments should be lower that what I estimated based on my collected list of instruments. The reason for this incongruity could be that my list contains relatively more surviving mandolas and mandocellos than mandolins. An explanation could be that the latter two instruments generate more attention online due to their rarity - I know this sounds contradictory, but I hope you get the point.
    Last edited by keef; May-08-2023 at 4:11pm.

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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Some more trivia: re the 153 and 199 number stamps - my instrument list has no model listed with a handwritten label number in the 126-250 range, and I always wondered about the reason of this relatively big gap.

    The stamped 153 and 199 numbers happen to fall right within this range.....which could support the assumption that the inside stamped numbers do represent the actual total number of carved top instruments made up to the time of stamping.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    keef, Thanks very much for commenting on this. I'm not sure I wholly understand everything, but let me re-phrase what I think you said and then ask another question.

    I think you said that the stamped number "199" means that this instrument, regardless of "style" (A, B, or C) or type (mandolin, mandola, mandocello), is the 199th L&H carved top mando-type instrument built. Is that right? The "No. 17" means that it is the 17th carved top mandocello built. This would mean that among carved top instruments built between stamped numbers 153 and 199 there were 8 mandocellos (Nos. 10-17).

    Now, given all of the above, I have an L&H mandola on which the label reads "No. 11", and there is no number stamped inside. My guess is that this represents the 11th mandola build but we have no idea of where exactly it falls in the greater range of carved top instrument. [Though, like my mandocello, the "Pat. Apl'd For" on the pick guard would be meaningful as to date.] Is that a reasonable guess?

    Again, thanks for your deep thinking on all this.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Regarding the Leland mandocellos pictured here: I've had two of them over the years. Most of the Leland Brilliantone mando-family line are usually credited to Larson Bros. The mandocellos are in dispute, but I would lean toward Larson builds, because of the creativity and eccentricity of the design. It has a unique combination of carved- and canted-top, with a prominent vertical ridge in the center of the top running from tailpiece to soundhole. They sound fantastic, with a snap to the attack that you don't find on any other 'cellos that I've tried.

    I'd be interested in other impressions.

  21. #41

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by keef View Post
    Some more trivia: re the 153 and 199 number stamps - my instrument list has no model listed with a handwritten label number in the 126-250 range, and I always wondered about the reason of this relatively big gap.

    The stamped 153 and 199 numbers happen to fall right within this range.....which could support the assumption that the inside stamped numbers do represent the actual total number of carved top instruments made up to the time of stamping.
    I don't know whether anyone has uncovered instruments with duplicate frame numbers. If there were two instruments of different sizes with the same number, it would indicate separate frame numbering systems for the different sizes.

    Here is my theory, which could easily be wrong, BUT would help explain the mismatch in label and frame numbers (speaking for MCs):
    1. It appears that the mandocellos were made in 3 batches between 1917 and roughly 1928, first by L&H, then by the Larsen Brothers for L&H and finally by L&H again under their "own brand".
    2. It takes a certain amount of lead time to construct an instrument so, knowing that they were going to market the MCs in 1917, L&H might well have started construcging frames in 1916, sequentially numbering each side frame with a number unique to MCs (they would have done the same thing with the other sizes as well, rather than have all size frames in the same sequential numbering system.) They might have started at 1 or, assuming a three digit system 101.
    3. L&H made an estimate of the number of MCs that they would be able to sell and started cranking out numbered frames.
    4. Then the frames were randomly assigned to carvers who matched a precut back to a frame and carved the back for that frame.
    5. The matched back and frame were then handed off to an assembler who would glue them together to create a body.
    6. Then the partially assembled bodies would be handed off to another carver who would carve a top, checking tone as they worked.
    7. The partially assembled body and top would be handed off to another assembler who would glue them together pass the body on to someone who would add the neck.
    8. Ultimately, the assembled body with a fretted neck would go to a finisher.
    9. The finished bodies would then receive a label with a unique distribution order number before being strung and boxed for shipping, but the distribution number wouldn't necessarily be the same as the side frame number because the various carvers and assemblers would have had a different production rate, AND, the frames were randomly assigned to being with.
    10. As they ran out of orders for MCs, L&H stopped production, still holding on to an inventory of serially numbered frames.
    11. After some time, with additional orders, L&H farmed out production to the Larsen Brothers who contracted to build a number of MCs to L&H specs, USING THE L&H FRAMES. The finished instruments would have been returned to L&H for labeling and stringing. At that point, L&H may have started to use a different numbering system for their labels, for instruments with existing frame numbers.
    12. A few years later, L&H decided to use up all of their existing MC frames (and perhaps produce a few more) and, in-house, built MCs for the "L&H Own brand".
    13. The upshot of all of this is that, if all of the sequentially numbered frames were used and the numbering system was unique to MCs, then the highest frame number is the number of MCs that were built, Irrespective of the number on the label which would have indicated the number of instruments of several kinds delivered.

  22. #42
    Martin Stillion mrmando's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Gochfeld View Post
    The upshot of all of this is that, if all of the sequentially numbered frames were used and the numbering system was unique to MCs, then the highest frame number is the number of MCs that were built, Irrespective of the number on the label which would have indicated the number of instruments of several kinds delivered.
    Sorry, but Jason having a cello stamped 532 shoots down the whole theory. No way were more than 500 of these cellos made.
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Sorry, but Jason having a cello stamped 532 shoots down the whole theory. No way were more than 500 of these cellos made.
    Suppose that the numbering began with 101 so that all of the frames had three digits. Then you would only have 432. Approximately what year did that one leave the factory?

    OR: each of the three sets began with a different number. Suppose 101 - 299 were reserved for the original distribution; 301 - 399 or more were reserved for the second distribution (the ones attributed to the Larsen Brothers); and subsequent numbers reserved for the final distribution.

    If the numbering sequence was not unique to the MCs, then one should look at the frame numbers on the Mandolas and the Mandolins to see if there are any duplicates OR to see if all of the frames were given serail numbers in one series. Everyone should pitch in and start looking at and comparing there two sets of numbers and reporting them out to get a clearer picture.

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  25. #44
    Pataphysician Joe Bartl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Okay. I have an L&H mandola, label has serial number 11. There is no number on the frame. Sorry if this complicates things even further.

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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    I’ve posted this on other threads, so apologies for any redundancy. My L&H Style A mandolin has serial number 26 and a stamped number 30 on the side nearest to where one of 2 points is located and on the same side as the pick guard.

  27. #46

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Bob: to photograph the label you have to position the lens of the camera of your cell phone between the strings. You can even rest the phone on top of the strings and move it around until the label looks in focus. You might try doing it outside in the light during the day.

    As for clefs: what you say is true but bass clef in most cases is called an F clef and the scroll of the clef indicates the F note on the 2nd line from the top. The treble clef is the G clef: the curly part indicate a G note on the second line from the bottom of the staff. And the C clef which is movable indicates the C note wherever the line ir space is that is in the middle of the clef.

    Your trick for reading the bass clef is fine for the mandocello but would not work for the double bass or, for that matter, the tuba.

    And as for the Special it might help to post some pics of your mandocello and we can compare it with Joe’s. It is possible that it may have an extended fretboard or some other custom feature.
    I finally took a photo of the label. HOW DO YOU SEND A PHOTO TO THIS THREAD????

  28. #47
    Pataphysician Joe Bartl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Put a shortcut to the image file on your computer desktop. In the "Quick Reply" area, click the "Go Advanced" button. Type your message. When you are ready to insert the image, look at the icons above your typed message and choose this one:

    Name:  Screenshot 2024-03-22 at 12.52.54 PM.png
Views: 64
Size:  7.3 KB

    In the resulting window, click "Choose file". It will take you to what is on your desktop. Double-click the shortcut to your image. Then click the "Upload file" button. In your message window you'll see a bracketed set of html instructions. If you look below your message, you'll have a button that says "Preview Post" -- click on it and check to make sure your image is there. Then you are ready to "Submit".

    Hope this helps.

  29. #48

    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Bartl View Post
    Put a shortcut to the image file on your computer desktop. In the "Quick Reply" area, click the "Go Advanced" button. Type your message. When you are ready to insert the image, look at the icons above your typed message and choose this one:

    Name:  Screenshot 2024-03-22 at 12.52.54 PM.png
Views: 64
Size:  7.3 KB

    In the resulting window, click "Choose file". It will take you to what is on your desktop. Double-click the shortcut to your image. Then click the "Upload file" button. In your message window you'll see a bracketed set of html instructions. If you look below your message, you'll have a button that says "Preview Post" -- click on it and check to make sure your image is there. Then you are ready to "Submit".

    Hope this helps.
    OK - finally, after a year of dithering on this subject, I followed your instructions, to a point of failure. I created the shortcut. I clicked on the symbol. Two options appeared: computer or URL. When it showed computer, I double clicked the shortcut and nothing happened. The "upload file" button never lit up. I tried clicking it and nothing happened. If I clicked the URL option, a fillable box opened up (with no upload file button) and I couldn't fill the box with anything useful. I never got to see a bracketed set of html instructions. Any ideas?

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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    When you type a reply in the box there are symbols above where you are typing. Click on the third one from the end. Insert photo. Then click on the from computer, unless you know the url. Click on browse and find the photos and you can find the one you want to add and click on it. Then click on upload. I don't use go advanced at all.
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  31. #50
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Lyon and Healy mandocellos

    Quote Originally Posted by pops1 View Post
    When you type a reply in the box there are symbols above where you are typing. Click on the third one from the end. Insert photo. Then click on the from computer, unless you know the url. Click on browse and find the photos and you can find the one you want to add and click on it. Then click on upload. I don't use go advanced at all.
    I have yet to upload any image using a URL. It never has worked for me. I only upload from my computer or phone.
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