Better tone with a Wooden Tailpiece ?

[John Cadd]

On a Violin forum a member suggested removing the wooden violin tailpiece and fitting a brass and wire connection ,very similar to Mandolins and Ukeleles. I was the only one to test the idea and the notes played as usual --but it killed the tone stone dead . The rosewood tailpiece certainly helped the violin sound. I thought the test indicated something worth mentioning . The gap between bridge and tailpiece on a violin is tuned for best results .The distance is pretty much standardised and departing from that makes the sound worse . The Mandolin tailpiece brackets do not seem to be designed for tonal improvement.Just covering up untidy wire ends or decoration . The usual woods used for violins will fill that gap and work just as well . Just try your carving skills and see what happens . The tailpiece end can be kept off the surface with a loop coming up from beneath .I have seen old instruments with gut fitted like that . Having straight wires all the way down must create a mechanical restriction that might have a negative effect . Contact at the bottom end is best kept short and narrow .

[Charles E.]

Violin family instruments are very different from mandolin family instruments and cannot be compared. Violins utilize a sound post, one bass bar and the strings are driven with a bow. Mandolins are much more heavily built to handle metal strings in double courses and the use of a plectrum to drive the strings.

On violin family instruments, the space between the back of the bridge to the end of the tailpiece should be 1/6th the length of the vibrating string length from the nut to the front of the bridge.

[Jeff Mando]

Not being a violin player of any merit, I wanted to ask if fine tuners on a violin tailpieces dull the sound? It seems like most players use them.

[EdHanrahan]

On violin family instruments, the space between the back of the bridge to the end of the tailpiece should be 1/6th the length of the vibrating string length from the nut to the front of the bridge.

In 16 years of avidly reading here and elsewhere, I've never heard that before. Not disputing the thought OR arguing violin-family design (I know nothing!) but... any comment on why?

FWIW, I just did a quick check on several archtop mandolins (cheapo Rover, '17 Gibson, '90s Flatiron), and thier bridge-to-tailpiece free string is around 4", not close to 1/6 of their 13 7/8" scale, and not really close to 1/3, either. Just sayin'... and just curious!

[Bob Buckingham]

Thomastic used to have a metal tailpiece. It helped some fiddles and hurt others. Not sure that a wood tailpiece is the answer on a mandolin.

[Charles E.]

In 16 years of avidly reading here and elsewhere, I've never heard that before. Not disputing the thought OR arguing violin-family design (I know nothing!) but... any comment on why?

FWIW, I just did a quick check on several archtop mandolins (cheapo Rover, '17 Gibson, '90s Flatiron), and thier bridge-to-tailpiece free string is around 4", not close to 1/6 of their 13 7/8" scale, and not really close to 1/3, either. Just sayin'... and just curious!

I worked for a professional violin shop for most of my carreer and that is what I was taught. The theory is that the after length would be a fifth and two octaves above the string. We focused more on it when we made tailpieces for Baroque instruments.

Here is an interesting read...
https://j-dv.com/blog/2021/afterleng...s-and-a-truth/

[Richard500]

Wonderful antique drawing in that link! I like, especially, the sun as the octave symbol. That should be a fingerboard inlay. Also, the hand tuning from the cloud; probably coming along right now - so prescient.
About the issue of the tailpiece, for the quick experiment, put the mandolin on your lap and damp the ‘afterlength’ with one hand while strumming: at least to my ear, there is no change in volume or tonality. One reason is that the mandolin bridge is essentially a dead stick clamped to the top, not an active filter like the bridge on a violin, which is very sensitive to both mass and vibrational mode. Also, for something played up against your neck, bare strings might not be a good idea, nor would hardware at the instrument end. As for the ‘resonances’ argument, obviously applies, if at all, only with the open strings, so bogus, especially since violinists avoid these most of the time - you can’t add vibrato to an open.
So, I’m not rushing to the shop to make some sort of gorilla wooden tailpiece as an experiment. Or the mod to the instrument where it attaches.

[rcc56]

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[rcc56]

Metal tailpieces on violins are popular among fiddlers these days.
My personal experience with them has been that, at least on better quality violins, is that when I swapped back and forth between a metal tailpiece and a wooden one, the wooden one sounded noticeably better.

I've never seen a mandolin with a wooden tailpiece, but the string tension on a mandolin is significantly higher than on a violin. You would need a very tough piece of wood for the job to reduce the chance of cracking or splitting such a tailpiece.

[mjbee]

Checking on the new Monteleone mandolin registry, https://monteleonemandolin.com/ and it seems that in the few examples from 2009 onward, Mr Monteleone has switched from a cast tailpiece to a wooden violin style (attached by looping over the end pin) wooden tailpiece. Of course they are exquisite design features, but I wonder if he was looking for contributions to tone by using wooden tailpieces.

[John Cadd]

I can "hear " a very familiar style of answers to the question here. The article from Wood Knife and Sound has all the features . It starts off with a red herring about tension. Then mocks the ideas from the Stradivari era as if Everything then was nonsense. Coming back to the present day where machines knock out metal tailpieces as the quick and easy (probably Made in America brand )way to save bothering with such nonsense . A salesman for metal tailpieces would be very proud . If you say one sixth the scale length ,it becomes Exactly One Sixth and nothing one hair above or below, which leaves another angle for derision . So relaxing into --About one sixth --is close enough without making a new religion out of it .It`s a starting place to see what might be possible. Violinists who try other positions or materials have different views .Mainly too much weight near the bridge is a damper that spoils the sound. A red herring is to divert the chat to what holds the other end--Plastic or Kevlar or Gut . That`s a different argument .Some find the very best violins work better with wooden tailpieces rather than metal .That`s their valid experience . Generally the wood versus metal difference does not show any benefit either way . Excess weight near the bridge with metal tuners on wood does have a negative effect . That is a plus for metal tailpieces with built in tuners .That design keeps the string distance from the bridge very even.The added metal ones on a wood tailpiece alters the after length . That might matter in this chat since that is what we are trying to calculate .
For nervous players with steel strings we might think about reduced tension using nylon strings. Is the tension of steel strings really so impossible for wood to cope ? Boxwood or ebony is good enough on a violin. Is the tension on a mandolin that much different? Violin and Mandolin Pitch is the same and frequency depends on tension . I will look that up .No stones unturned is the motto . And the wood may be grown in America too . So there is some hope left .

[John Cadd]

A nice coincidence came after writng here .I found Jake Wildwood &co and an article plus pictures ; Gypsy`s Music Nylon String Mandolinfrom April 2018.
The tailpiece might be wood or plastic (or even Bakelite ,unlikely , it just looks hard and shiny ).
Have a red herring style look at the fixing with a violin style end peg instead of the metal bracket .
I don`t think it uses a 6 to 1 ratio . The question about steel tension shows a massive extra pull with steel compared with nylon ,and a 2 to 1 extra ratio against violins with single strings .Violins use less tension anyway with a thin bridge and a much higher bridge too .
If a mandolin became too nicely toned would it turn players off it ?

[Jim Garber]

Metal tailpieces on violins are popular among fiddlers these days.

I believe that many fiddlers want the fine tuners on all strings but among fiddlers I know we generally prefer the lighter weight Wittner composite tailpieces which are actually made of very strong plastic. I have switched out the older style Wittner metal ones on all my fiddles for the composite one and did get much better tone.