Why are old Gibson snakeheads seemingly worth so much more than ones with paddle headstocks?
I'm just curious if there's legitimate sound or playability improvements or if it's just an aesthetic thing.
Why are old Gibson snakeheads seemingly worth so much more than ones with paddle headstocks?
I'm just curious if there's legitimate sound or playability improvements or if it's just an aesthetic thing.
I guess I'll just stay right here, pick and sing a while...
2022 Morris F5, 1995 Flatiron 2MB, 2004 Eastman 805
As far as 'worth' goes... I'd chalk it up to basic supply and demand.
As far as 'playability'... In general the Snakeheads came with narrower nut-widths, enabled by the new trussrod feature. Some (myself included) find the narrower nuts/neck profile preferable to the (again, generally) Paddleheads' wider necks.
"I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb
I think it looks much better. A paddle head is really too big for that short and skinny neck aesthetically.
Technically the strings have a better travel directly to the nut. If it affects sound? I dunno.
Kentucky KM-805..........2 Hora M1086 Portuguese II(1 in car)
Hora M1088 Mandola.....
Richmond RMA-110..... .Noname Bearclaw
Pochette Franz Janisch...5 Pocket............Alfredo Privitera pocket
Puglisi Pocket 1908........Puglisi 1912.......Puglisi 1917
3 Mandolinetto ..............C.Garozzo
1 Mandriola...................Cannelo G. Mandriola...Böhm Waldzither 1921
Johs Møller 1945............Luigi Embergher Studio 1933
Marma Seashell back......Luigi Embergher 5bis 1909
Lloyd Loar pixie dust! He must have walked by the mandolin during its construction.
Seriously, I prefer the narrower neck. If you can get one with good intonation, they can cover a wide variety of genres & be a life-time mandolin. Of course, the same can be said about the ore-Loar paddle heads. I love my '23 A-1, but really miss a late teens refrigerator white A-3 that I sold to finance a move many years ago.
I now own two, my ‘23 A2 which I have owned for close to forty years and a recently acquired 24 A4 which was on my list list for sometime. I also owned a 23 A-junior which was a sweetheart of an instrument. Yes, the narrower neck but the tone is a bit different from the earlier paddle heads. However, I am also a big fan of early 1920s pre-Loars. Probably a better bargain. I paid top dollar or close for the A-4 but it is pristine and has collectible features that really have little to do with the music it makes. I do like to sit and admire it before and after playing it. Sometimes there are other aspects to consider than functionality.
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
19th Century Tunes
Playing lately:
1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1
I've had quite a few oval hole Gibson A models in my hands.
My experience is that their tonal characteristics can vary considerably from instrument to instrument, but I have not found any discernable connection between the tonal variations and the year of manufacture or the neck style.
When I started playing mandolin over 40 years ago, folks were already noting the presence of a snakehead neck, but I believe that a lot of the reason for that was because of the look, the slimmer neck profile, the presence of a truss rod, and the smaller production numbers rather than any consistent difference in tone.
I'll note that I've owned 3 A-4's, one from 1916 or 17, one from 1920, and one from 1932 or so. The tone of the '32 was quite similar to the one from 1916, while the tone of the 1920 mandolin was quite different from the others. I'll note that the factory fret placement on the '32 was so far off that I had to replace the fingerboard to allow the instrument to play in tune.
Since some players are now developing a preference for wide fretboards, I wonder whether there is going to be a decrease in demand for snakeheads. Maybe yes, maybe no. Lots of folks like the look of the snakeheads, and fewer were made.
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Market trends for old instruments are not necessarily determined by logic, rarity, or even tone. An interesting peghead logo or a celebrity connection can have far more effect on the market value than what the instrument sounds like. One example of this is Gibson J-45 guitars made between 1942 and 1954. Internally, they were built and braced the same, except for sporadic wood substitutions due to wartime materials shortages. But the early 40's models with a "banner" peghead logo will bring far more than the block logo models from the early 50's. And I've played some 50's J-45's that sounded much stronger than some of the banner head models.
An extreme example of how factors other than tone can affect market value are the skyrocketing prices of what was perhaps Martin's biggest mistake-- their D-18E acoustic-electric guitars. For over 30 years no one wanted them because they just didn't sound very good. But a fellow by the name of Kurt Cobain who had a couple of hit records bought one and used it on a famous video concert, and then suffered an early demise. As a result, original D-18E's now sell for around $20,000, if you can find one. It is said that his personal D-18E sold for $6 million at auction a couple of years ago, the highest price ever paid for any guitar.
Andy Statman
They get 'talked up' but I think every one is slightly different so there will be some great paddle heads and some poor snakeheads. I do think the paddle head is too wide as the strings touch each other on the way to the machine heads and the nut should be slotted ever so slightly different and may not always be. I think the snakehead looks better but a headstock in between paddlehead and snakehead and narrowing like a snakehead at the top would, IMHO, be better still.
Everyone's dancing around it but not coming right out and saying it, so I will - they're worth more and they cost more because they're better. That's it. End of story.
OK, I'm kidding, of course. But there have been a lot of people around here over the years who've been saying they've got mojo, or style, or just are aesthetically more pleasing. And if you've been following Jim Garber's thread about his newly purchased 1924 A-4 and seen the pictures, that presents that point of view in an abundantly clear manner. I've seen plenty of opinions on both sides of the question about whether they sound better, enough so I deduce it can't be - or hasn't yet been, which after all this time is virtually the same - empirically determined this is so. So it comes down to aesthetics, and IMO snakeheads look pretty darned cool, though that is a secondary consideration to their sound. I resist the term "paddlehead" for the standard headstock shape, though I suppose it's better than "blockhead" or some such. Yes, it looks a bit clunky, especially in comparison to snakeheads, but I don't think it matters. The most important part of the instrument is the body, from which the sound emanates. Next is the neck, which determines the playability and the accuracy of the sound production. The headstock is the third and by far least important part of the body. IMO, natch, and YMMV. Good morning!
Last edited by journeybear; Dec-01-2022 at 10:53am. Reason: upon further thought ...
But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller
Furthering Mandolin Consciousness
Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!
I think it comes down to playability, and the snakehead shape is just a visual cue indicating the mandolin has a number of changes (adjustable bridge, adjustable truss rod, smaller neck profile, etc.) that might keep a vintage instrument playing comfortably for some pickers.
1924 Gibson A Snakehead
2005 National RM-1
2007 Hester A5
2009 Passernig A5
2015 Black A2-z
2010 Black GBOM
2017 Poe Scout
2014 Smart F-Style Mandola
2018 Vessel TM5
2019 Hogan F5
I have a '22 with a truss rod, paddle headstock and wide (1 1/4") nut. It sounds great. I actually prefer the look of the paddle headstock to the snake, it looks more like it should to me.
THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!
I hadn't realized that snakeheads had truss rods while paddleheads did not, or that the nut width was significantly different.
I actually quite like the look of paddleheads, which I guess will be nice for my wallet if I ever want to buy a vintage Gibson! A teens Gibson A on my long-term 'I want one but really don't need one' wish list.
Mostly fashion. De gustibus non est disputandum.
Still, there remains the possibility that the mass of the headstock acts as a sort of comb filter, suppressing some frequencies. This concept has also been put forward regarding violin bows, with he added variables of the composition of the wood (or alternative material) of the bow itself.
Variation instrument-to0instrument cannot be denied, but there's a qualitative difference between the thicker non-trussrodded necked instruments, and those with the trussrods, which cannot be denied.
Ultimately, they cost more because people are willing to pay more for them.
Well... that's where things get a little fuzzy. Paddleheads existed before the Snakeheads came along (during the "Loar Era"). Those pre-Loar Paddleheads did not have truss rods. Truss rods were phased into the Paddlehead models during L.L's tenure. Take a look at this one from 1923.
https://www.gbase.com/gear/gibson-a-4-1923
"I play BG so that's what I can talk intelligently about." A line I loved and pirated from Mandoplumb
I went on a hunt for a Gibson A oval a few months ago. Since I couldn't compare or play one, I bought a '25 snakehead and a '21 paddlehead. Spent a long weekend playing them both side by side and the paddlehead was a better sounding instrument, so I sent the snakehead on its way. The neck shape and size doesn't bother me at all. The paddlehead neck was very similar to a vintage Kamaka uke I use to own. I'm not saying a snake is better than a paddle but in my comparison the paddle was superior. The snake was considerably more expensive (and in better condition), I wouldn't of had a problem paying more for it if it had sounded better but it didn't. I love the paddlehead and have had more positive compliments on the sound and volume from the folks I jam with.
THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!
And the snakeheads were only made from 1923 to 1927 or so. After that, they went back to the paddle head. Those later paddle heads had truss rods and tended to have a slimmer profile than the 1910's models.
As fussy as I might be, when I play my '23 A2 paddlehead wide neck I forget all about what I think I MUST have to be happy and revel in the sound, clarity, volume, precision and power that this mandolin oozes at the slightest provocation. Every single person who has played it has marveled at its wonderful eminence. It is quite modest in appearance but what a sound. Not a hint of tubbiness ether.
IK,Ik I'm bragging unabashedly but so be it. The coolness of the snakehead is a cosmetic thing while the wholeness of the instrument is what matters to me.
Billy
Billy Packard
Gilchrist A3, 1993
Weber Fern, 2007
Stiver Fern, 1990
Gibson 1923 A2
Gibson 1921 H1 Mandola
Numerous wonderful guitars
- Ed
"Then one day we weren't as young as before
Our mistakes weren't quite so easy to undo
But by all those roads, my friend, we've travelled down
I'm a better man for just the knowin' of you."
- Ian Tyson
As journeybear noted I recently acquired a 1924 A-4 snakehead in pristine condition with a Virzi for what that is worth. I paid the retail price because the stars had lined up and I had the funds. It was the most money I have paid for a mandolin but I was glad to do so. To my old ears it sounds different from other mandolins I have owned plus it looks to me that the Gibson team put a little extra into this one. I have tried quite a few A-4 snakeheads and don’t recall ever being disappointed in their tone and playability. I called Elderly immediately after I saw it.
That doesn’t mean that I could have gotten a non-snakehead with a similar sound. In fact I played a 1920 A at RetroFret that I loved but at less than half the price of this one but I didn’t have the cash nor did I really need it. And I didn’t need this A-4 either but it had the aesthetic features and the look that I just love to look at. My other favorite mandolin is its twin. Here they are:
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
19th Century Tunes
Playing lately:
1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1
So, to boil it down:
Snakeheads are more worth more because more people want them.
More people want them because they are so cool!
Next question.
All right, here’s the story of my first snakehead. IIRC this a was before I was even aware of the difference. I was at a vintage store in Amherst, MA and whe. I walked in on the wall was to be my black 23 A2. It was hangin on the center of a wall and I saw it immediatly., I picked it up and heard sounds that I loved. At that time my main and only mandolin was a white-faced A3 which I loved. For some reason this A2 had everything I wanted. Coincidently it was a snakehead.So I do believe there is something to the tone for some reason. IIRC the price was not much more than most other Gibson As.
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
19th Century Tunes
Playing lately:
1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1
it's easier to capo a snakehead.
f-d
¡papá gordo ain’t no madre flaca!
'20 A3, '30 L-1, '97 914, 2012 Cohen A5, 2012 Muth A5, '14 OM28A
According to Gibson records.. my Snake Head Jr. was made Dec 22, 1922.
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