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Thread: Embergher or De Santis ?

  1. #1

    Default Embergher or De Santis ?

    Having been playing Calace-type mandolins for more than 20 years now, I have been thinking about acquiring a Roman mandolin for quite a long time. It happens now that I have a possibility to buy, more or less for the same (expensive) prices, a 5bis Embergher from 1923, and a 1893 De Santis (/Maldura) with more of the early experimental Roman features (the fingerboard is very very high on the bass side), both in excellent condition. I don't know yet how to make my choice...
    What would you recommend, in terms of quality, playability, rarity ?
    Who has experience with these De Santis mandolins?

  2. #2
    Registered User Martin Jonas's Avatar
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    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    A 1923 Embergher 5bis would be one of the most desirable classical soloist mandolins around, and one still commonly played by top players. De Santis was a fore runner of Embergher (I vaguely remember reading that Embergher studied under him) and a high-quality luthier, but I'm not aware of his instruments being widely played these days. My gut feeling is that the De Santis is likely to be more rare, but that the Embergher will be the more mature example of the Roman style and more likely to be a player's instrument.

    Of course, as always it depends on the individual instrument, and it would be best to get a chance to play them.

    Martin

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  4. #3
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    +1 on Martin’s comment above. If you have the money and want the ultimate solo Roman model, yes, go for the 5bis. On the other hand you an do well with some of the lesser models as well. I guess it also depends on where you are going with your mandolin playing. The top players of the Italian school will play a 5bis or modern equivalent. I suppose if you are in that camp and seeking a career as a professional mandolin player then that would be the mandolin.

    If you have a choice of a few 5bis mandolins you might want to try and compare. I have played some later ones actually built when the shop was under the auspices of Domenico Cerrone which were exquisite instruments though I am sure that the ‘23 would also be fine.

    Personally I am in love with my 1904 Style 3. The workmanship is as good as anything and the sound is excellent.
    Jim

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  5. #4

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Thank you. I have no doubt about the unquestioned quality of the 5bis, but was rather wondering about the De Santis - it was made by someone who worked alone in his workshop, by hand on all details, while Embergher's production in 1923 was already more on the industrial side. It seems to me that the craftsmanship on these early De Santis is finer and more careful than on quasi-mass-produced Emberghers.

  6. #5

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Simply echoing the above, Embergher's 5bis seems to be the most desirable model among classical players who favor the Roman type. That said, I like mandolins—I like to play mandolins—but I haven't given much time to the Roman type because I find their extremely narrow fingerboards and pronounced V necks awkward. However, I wanted a Roman mandolin in my stable. I settled on a basic De Santis because (1) I like the shop's affiliation with the earliest origins of the modern type and (2) I wasn't seeking a piece to be my primary instrument.

    I don't think the statement that De Santis' "craftsmanship is finer and more careful than on quasi-mass-produced Emberghers" could be applied universally. I don't know of a reliable way to date the shop's output, but here's my admittedly basic De Santis assumed to be from the late 1890s:

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    Note that the tuner plates are rather unceremoniously chopped off to fit into their headstock recesses.

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    I suspect that this design was too new at the time for any machinist to be manufacturing tuner plates that simply fit.

    That said, the bowl's interior is meticulously and systematically lined with wood shavings, but not with any more art than I've seen evident to Emberghers. I love the voice of the Roman type, but those I've encountered are quite bright. Expect that. It may put off some.
    Last edited by Eugene; Dec-11-2022 at 3:03pm.

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  8. #6

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Here's an old photo of the label that was sent to me by the seller years ago. You can get a hint of the meticulous nature of the bowl's lining, but as alluded, that seems typical of any decent Roman mandolin I've seen.

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  9. #7

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Also note the rather straight "shoulders" on my and every other De Santis I've seen. Compare it to the compound curve of the soundboard at the neck–body joint of the Embergher 5bis; that compound curve manifests in three dimensions around the entirety of the bowl, of course. Personally, I feel that execution, that compound curve around the bowls of Embergher's mature concert mandolins, to constitute one of the most aesthetically graceful lines in the history of mandolin luthiery.

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  11. #8

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Thank you for your replies. It may be useful that I post a few images of that De Santis I am interested in : it seems indeed of a more elaborate workmanship than yours, and may explain the feeling I expressed :
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    Eugene 

  13. #9

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Cool. Fluted ribs always inspire a little salivation in me. Evidently quite early in function as well. I don't know if you're accustomed to tension pegs on plucked thingies. I am via both lute-like things with pegs passing through two planes of a pegbox (like on baroque mandolino, mandolino toscano, or viola da mano) as well as through a single plane (like the De Santis you're considering here, early Neapolitan mandolin, and early guitar). One gets used to it, but the torsion on pegs through a single plane make them a bit more difficult to use and require more frequent maintenance.
    Last edited by Eugene; Dec-11-2022 at 3:34pm.

  14. #10

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Finally, these very early, tension-peg incarnations of modern mandolin types built for modern wire strings tend to be rather nichey in their appeal to mandolin fans. I don't see that the piece you're considering has much by way of ornament (other than the fluted ribs, which the Embergher you're considering almost certainly has as well), and it doesn't have much by way of fingerboard extension. I think the De Santis should be approached much more as a collector's piece (especially because of its nearness to the origins of the modern Roman type) than an instrument with modern functionality. Assuming similar condition between the two, I don't think the De Santis pictured would be likely to command the resale value of an Embergher 5bis.
    Last edited by Eugene; Dec-11-2022 at 3:35pm.

  15. #11

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Actually I am quite used to these pegs, as I sometimes play on a rather cheap Mirecourt instrument from the 1840's that has the same style of pegs.
    Well, this choice, as it seems, requires further thinking - after all, I waited 20 years for a Roman mandolin and can give myself more time.

  16. #12

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Cool. I'd love to see your Mirecourt piece. My early Neapolitan mandolin is also French but assumed a little earlier, perhaps mid-1830s, but that's only speculation arrived at through correspondence with Alex Timmerman years ago. Really old, (mostly) scanned-film photos of mine:

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    The one of the whole instrument's back in profile is more recent and includes its replacement pegs (it was fit with mismatched violin pegs when it arrived). I've also replaced its bridge.
    Last edited by Eugene; Dec-11-2022 at 4:43pm.

  17. #13

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    This is exactly the twin sister of the one I have. I would be very much interested to read that correspondance you mention with Alex T.
    My assumption that it is from the 1840's is impressionistic, and may be wrong. I seem to remember that the maker of this series of mandolins is most likely Jérôme Thibouville-Lamy or his workshop, even though they are not signed.

  18. #14

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Our correspondence on this was decades ago now. I mailed physical photographs, and Alex replied on paper by snail mail. I have no idea where the paper associated with that correspondence ended up. At the time, he speculated the piece may have some association with Clement Eulry's shop after Eulry's death, but I don't know how likely that actually is or if he'd still hold that opinion. I do know this piece is different from the other relatively early (but certainly slightly later than this) Thibouville-Lamy mandolins I've seen; those have had slightly larger shells with somewhat more modern proportions. I know Sinier de Ridder sold a nearly identical piece several years ago, but I never got around to writing Francoise to ask her thoughts on its origin.

  19. #15

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    This is mine (found in a flea market for 30€ some 15 years ago)
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  21. #16

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    As you probably know, there is a signed Clément Eulry mandolin at the V&A museum, of which no photographs are available on the musum's website. But I found out that it had been photographed and posted here (https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...f-Note/page278), unfortunately without a reference, but I am pretty sure it is the one :
    Attachment 151665
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  22. #17

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    I think this is the one referenced by Alex when we corresponded. These share soundbox profile and unusual "heel" at the neck–body joint, and those features are thus interesting.

  23. #18
    Unfamous String Buster Beanzy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Here's a zoom in on the label after I asked the curator to turn it writing side up.
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    & the photo from which it is taken in case anyone can get better clarity on it:
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    Eoin



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  25. #19

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Thank you. As we tacke the interesting subject of early 19th century mandolins, I share here some screen captures I had made from Terranova's catalogue (https://dokumen.tips/documents/bruno...i.html?page=90), of instruments of Italian origin from the transitional period :
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  27. #20
    Registered User Alex Timmerman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Hi all,

    Nice to be back after a long period of absence!
    With regard of the Eulry mandolins things are still not completely clear.
    What my findings for now are, gives me reasons to believe that the ones shown here by Eugene and Quartini, are indeed made after, 1840. Not before. The one in the V&A Museum is a 'special case' and possibly from an even later date. I have come to this conclusion because I came across several examples with a similar design as the ones shown here, but without the raised ebony fingerboard of which I think that was a (somewhat) later novelty. By the way, and to make things even more complicated, this model, differing only because a modern tuning mechanic with lateral turners was placed at the back of the head, was also made by the Jerome Thibouville-Lamy firm. Both in the bowl- and flat back design.

    Best greetings, Alex.

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  29. #21

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Thank you Alex for this valuable information.
    In case it is of interest, I took the measurements and some additional photos of my own Mirecourt Eulry/Thibouville? mandolin.

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    To compare, these are the measurements of the Eulry mandolin of the V&A museum, according to their website (https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O...l%C3%A9ment/):
    Length total length: 62cm
    Length of body length: 28.5cm
    Width: 17cm
    String length : 25.5cm

    Apparently, quite different from mine (and larger).

  30. #22

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    And, again for the sake of comparison, photos and partial measurements of another one, similar but still different. Note the very different neck joint, and the fingerboard which is not raised. Source here : https://www.zikinf.com/annonces/annonce-1938927
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    Strig length: 325#mm
    depth of the back: 115#mm
    Total length#: 590#mm

  31. #23

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Now another one : similar design, but modern neck joint and head tuning systems. No measurements known. Source : https://www.apollium.fr/catalogue/ve...ne-napolitaine. This one is signed Jérôme Thibouville Lamy à Paris
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  32. #24

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    And now a flat one, but always with similar design, and old-style pegs. Width : 19 cm ; total length 57.5 cm. Source : http://www.musee-lutherie-mirecourt....nu=5&idpage=27
    Attachment 204974
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  33. #25

    Default Re: Embergher or De Santis ?

    Cool. I'll try to add measurements from my own soon, but I'm engaged in the business of holidaying at the moment.

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