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Thread: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

  1. #1
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    I saw this small mandolin that actually looks like one of those pocket mandolins (mandolin scale but on a very small body) but proportionately looked to me to be a piccolo. I lucked out and it is a piccolo.

    It was, oddly enough, on Shopgoodwill, but is in relatively good shape. A wee bowlback made in Catania, Sicily by Stefano Caponnetto. Below are some pics.

    Nut looks like it needs to be replaced but fretboard looks pretty straight. I have a feeling the bridge is not original but it looks like it should be lowered a bit. Strings are from the mezzozoic era and black with age. There might be a hairline crack or separation on the bowl.

    Here's some info on one of my favorite guitar sites: https://www.fetishguitars.com/sicily...ly/caponnetto/

    This mandolin looks like it came from the same era as that small guitar all the way on the bottom of this page

    The only other info I have is from my Henley violin book, a short entry that says only "Worked at Catania, (Sicily) 1930. Bowed and plucked instruments. Commercial.

    Another Caponetto mandolin is discussed here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...wlback-on-ebay

    I just read through this 18-year old thread from 2004, when I first got my Leland piccolo: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...colo-Mandolins
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    Last edited by Jim Garber; Dec-27-2022 at 3:57pm.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    And for your further entertainment, here are a couple of photos of my three vintage piccolo mandolins: Leland, Caponnetto, unlabeled maybe American. The two bowlbacks have the same scale length of around 9-7/8 inches / 25cm. I especially like the sort of Embergher look of this Caponnetto though it is not really built like a Roman instrument.

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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Glad you got this one; I was thinking someone would buy it thinking it was full-size, the measurements in SGW not being too reliable. It does look like the ist string broke through the wood nut, but it’s a zerofret machine so replacing the wood part is trivial. The bridge saddle, chewed rather deeply by the strings could have been something like celluloid or another plastic. Having just picked up another mandolin from that part of Italy, I looked at this one, but figured I would never play it. Apparently Caponnetto had a lot of good production; his violins are valuable, and he did some interesting guitars, as below-
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Actually, looking at the fuzzy photo of that parlor guitar from the fetish guitar site the piccolo bridge may well be original.

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    Registered User John Bertotti's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Thanks for those picture. I loved seeing them!
    My avatar is of my OldWave Oval A

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    Registered User Sue Rieter's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    They're really cool, Jim. I'd like to know more about how (looking at ads) you distinguish between them and the less worthy pocket mandolins.
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Overall length was listed as 19 inches. Normal mandolin is about 27 inches. Actually I just guessed a pocket would be a little longer than 19". It was a good guess since a pocket mandolin scale would be around 13" which would leave only 4" left for the body and headstock over and above the scale length.
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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Hi Jim,

    I really enjoy your piccolo mandolin posts, being a piccolo mandolin enthusiast myself. I thought I'd post a photo of the trio of piccolos I am playing these days.

    The first on the left is an A4-style piccolo mandolin Mike Black built for me. Really a super little instrument.

    The middle one is a flat-top I built a couple of years ago but keep hanging onto because every time I get the notion to sell it, I have a need for it. At this point, I've built a number of these. I take this one to most of my duo's gigs and audiences seem to really like it.

    The third is the prototype of my 4-string, nylon-strung piccolos, of which I am just completing my second one. I like the nylon voice. I'll post a thread about that second one with a video, once it's finished.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Hey Bob: I was wondering when you would find this thread. I have been following your piccolo journey.
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Overall length was listed as 19 inches. Normal mandolin is about 27 inches. Actually I just guessed a pocket would be a little longer than 19". It was a good guess since a pocket mandolin scale would be around 13" which would leave only 4" left for the body and headstock over and above the scale length.
    Slightly off topic, naturally, but this reminds me of a poignant Italian expression: braccino corto.

    I've heard it used as a derogatory term for a tightwad. Someone whose arm is too short to reach their pockets or wallet for money.

    A 19" pocket would only compound the problem.


    I'd enjoy hearing that Leland some day, Jim.

    And Bob's, too, of course!

    Mick
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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    I'd enjoy hearing that Leland some day, Jim.

    Mick
    Mick, I posted this sound file a few times after I got the Leland piccolo playable. You can play the mp3 on this thread post: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...=1#post1771577
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    This is an interesting thread - thank you Jim. But what exactly is the difference between a piccolo, pocket, and modern day travel mandolin? I've always been fascinated with "pochette" violin "kits" used by dance masters traveling on horse back - some of them in museums like the Victoria & Albert, are just awesome. In the link below you can see how narrow they were - basically a neck with no body. I've seen some of the played remarkably well by accomplished violinists.

    Here's a link: https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O...ouyn-dimanche/

    The mandolin's described here all appear to be much wider than the pocket violin kits. Historically, was there an equivalent "mandolin pochette" (for lack of knowing the right term) that would have been carried by itinerant musicians traveling on horseback and that truly would fit in a pocket like the violin pochettes? Thank you for any input.
    Last edited by Tim Logan; Dec-30-2022 at 10:18am.

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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Logan View Post
    This is an interesting thread - thank you Jim. But what exactly is the difference between a piccolo, pocket, and modern day travel mandolin? I've always been fascinated with "pochette" violin "kits" used by dance masters traveling on horse back - some of them in museums like the Victoria & Albert, are just awesome. In the link below you can see how narrow they were - basically a neck with no body. I've seen some of the played remarkably well by accomplished violinists.

    Here's a link: https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O...ouyn-dimanche/

    The mandolin's described here all appear to be much wider than the pocket violin kits. Historically, was there an equivalent "mandolin pochette" (for lack of knowing the right term) that would have been carried by itinerant musicians traveling on horseback and that truly would fit in a pocket like the violin pochettes? Thank you for any input.
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    Barn Cat Mandolins Bob Clark's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    To be clear about Piccolo mandolins, they are not just a smaller mandolin. Piccolo mandolins are the sopranino member of the mandolin family. Their bodies are proportionately smaller than a mandolin, just as typical mandola bodies are larger than a mandolin. They are tuned a fourth higher than a mandolin (cgda), an octave above a mandola. Their shorter scale length reflects this higher pitch, as does their smaller body size. They are not primarily designed for travel, but as a legitimate member of the mandolin family of instruments.

    The travel mandolin I had was a Weber Sweet Pea. It is tuned gdae, like other mandolins. Its scale length is in keeping with other gdae mandolins but its body is considerably smaller than even a piccolo mandolin. It was designed for travel and is perfectly suited for that purpose, but it lacked the tone and volume you'd want for playing with others. Good for its intended purpose, but that purpose is travel, not ensemble play. In fact, I found it well designed as a rugged travel companion.

    Piccolo mandolins, however, do (or at least 'can') have the tone and volume needed for playing with others. While small and hence easy to travel with, they are not as small as typical travel mandolins. They can have a very sweet but higher pitched voice than other members of the mandolin family. And their voice is distinctly theirs, just as is the voice of the mandolin, mandola and so on.

    I'm not clear on what a pochette is. At some point, it all comes down to semantics anyway. But I hope the information I provided on what a piccolo (sopranino) mandolin is helps. I would not think of it as a small mandolin any more than I would think of a mandola as a large mandolin. They are, instead, distinct members of this one family of instruments.

    Best wishes, Bob
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Thanks Bob. That totally clears it up about piccolo mandolins!

    I know in the world of violins, a dance master's kit or pochette, , was a very specific instrument like the one you see in the link I attached. I've just always been curious as to whether or not, historically, there was an equivalent "mandolin kit" back in the 17-18th centuries. "Kit" being a specific term of reference.

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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    Mick, I posted this sound file a few times after I got the Leland piccolo playable. You can play the mp3 on this thread post: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...=1#post1771577
    Thanks, Jim.

    I must have missed this.

    Funny thing...the player wouldn't show up as active in my Google browser and to load it in Firefox.

    Nice to hear!

    As you know, I'm a big fan of the Leland mandolin line.

    Who did the repair / set up for you? Or did you do it yourself?

    Mick
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Wow. wow. wow.

    Jim, just wow.

    Just play the potatoes out of it. Just make it sing.

    As some may know I have a Weber Sopranino mandolin, the piccolo sized Weber Gallatin. It has been on the back burner for a while, but due to this thread I got it out and played it. Did mostly Christmas type music.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Clark View Post
    a legitimate member of the mandolin family of instruments.
    Absolutely. There is a video, somewhere, of Mike Marshall noodling on a sopranino.
    A talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious.

    The entire staff
    funny....

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    Timothy Tim Logan's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Here's a video of a soprano mandolin. Holy Moly!!!!! Quite cool!

    https://youtu.be/EzmRS6hfXdg

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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    To continue this discussion...

    Oddly enough this Leland Brilliantone Piccolo has been listed on Reverb. The scale length is described as 9 inches which seems very short and the video provided sounds to me to be a standard mandolin. NOTE: I just checked and the video is not the mandolin for sale and, in fact, it is not a piccolo. I am taking out the video.

    The bridge looks non-original. It is missing the tailpiece cover as well as the tuner gear cover. I did write to the seller to check the actual scale length. Mine is 10.25".
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    Last edited by Jim Garber; Feb-02-2023 at 10:22pm.
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    This was how I got a standard Leland mandolin years ago. The seller listed it as a piccolo and was clueless about scale length. When I got it it was a standard mandolin.

    Here are the two of them side by side for comparison. The piccolo usually has a much narrowed pickguard:

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    For reference, here is the Leland piccolo page for the ca. 1912 page L&H catalog.

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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    That's a good story, Jim.

    I had a similar start with my first Leland. The seller advertised it as a 'mandola' which I was looking for.
    Turned out to be a proper mandolin and when I strung it up, I was hooked.
    Seller sent me a healthy refund on top of it.
    Still one of my favorites. Carlo Aonzo borrowed it and wouldn't give it back.
    Jokingly offered his in exchange.

    Gorgeous RW back on the long haired dude's axe.

    I've never bought into the LarBros sourcing for these.

    Vega.

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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    So the Reverb seller checked the scale length she it was not 9 inches but more like 13”. So this is not a piccolo but actually a standard mandolin.
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    So the Reverb seller checked the scale length she it was not 9 inches but more like 13”. So this is not a piccolo but actually a standard mandolin.
    The bad news is that I'm tempted by another...particularly with that rosewood rohrshach back.

    The Reverb price isn't unreasonable for a mandolin of this quality, but new tp cover, tuner cover, bridgework are surely needed.

    These are high quality mandolins. The short scale, small body and perceived unchopability will no doubt keep them in the niche market.

    For the Italian songbook I enjoy playing, I honestly prefer the tone over my Vinaccia or DeMeglio, but that may be my American ear.

    Mick
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    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    The bad news is that I'm tempted by another...particularly with that rosewood rohrshach back.

    The Reverb price isn't unreasonable for a mandolin of this quality, but new tp cover, tuner cover, bridgework are surely needed.

    These are high quality mandolins. The short scale, small body and perceived unchopability will no doubt keep them in the niche market.

    For the Italian songbook I enjoy playing, I honestly prefer the tone over my Vinaccia or DeMeglio, but that may be my American ear.

    Mick
    I should fix up my Leland full size. It just needs, I think, a bone bridge saddle. I should get it together in the off-chance that you and I meet again to play some Italian-American duets.
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    1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1

  36. The following members say thank you to Jim Garber for this post:


  37. #25
    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Ann Arbor/Austin
    Posts
    6,281

    Default Re: New Piccolo and My Piccolo Trio

    There's a rewarding project, Jim.

    I'd enjoy hearing your take on the sound of a Leland mando.

    I'm very taken with them.

    Though when I look at my mando rack, I'm starting to think it's time to start thinning the herd.

    Mick
    Ever tried, ever failed? No matter. Try again, fail again. Fail better.--Samuel Beckett
    ______________________

    '05 Cuisinart Toaster
    '93 Chuck Taylor lowtops
    '12 Stetson Open Road
    '06 Bialetti expresso maker
    '14 Irish Linen Ramon Puig

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