Second opinion on vintage Italian bowl back mandolin

[Capitano]

Hi,

This mandolin was my great-grandfather's. A friend put me in touch with a luthier in Naples who on the basis of these photos told me it was Sicilian and very confidently stated that the Vincenzo Berti company of the label applied inside the body was not the maker. He offered no other information.

Later on I wrote back asking why someone would have falsely applied a label. By that time I had found a second label, very difficult to see and photograph (I have tried), inside the body just below where the neck attaches. It looks old. I seem to be able to make out a spidery signature, and there are very clearly the numbers 1737 (I assume referring to the year). He answered that there are a lot of old mandolins in circulation with false labels to make them appear more valuable than they really are. He said that it was not produced in the era suggested by the second label, but he did not say when. I did not question him further because he did not seem inclined to be very forthcoming.

Dad was born in 1935. If we say a generation is 25 years and my great-grandfather acquired the instrument when he was 20 years old, that would have been 1905. So I can say that this mandolin is probably at least 117 years old. It has been passed down in my family since then. I cannot say with absolute certainty of course, but I would say it is highly unlikely that anybody in my family would have stuck a false label in it.

So what I am looking for is any information which would help me to establish the maker, when it was made, and a ball park estimate of its possible value.

Many thanks.

[NickR]

You should post a photo of the tuners as they can help date an instrument. At a casual glance it looks to me to be a bit newer than your estimated date- but my comment is based on the headstock shape alone as it is clearly old and before 1930, I would reckon and maybe even closer to your suggested date.

[Jim Garber]

1737 is the number give to this particular mandolin, not the year. Berti may not be the maker but could have contracted to have this mandolin made for them. They were in Rome and from the photos the mandolin has some Roman features. I am not sure why the luthier said it was Sicilian but that is also possible. While not a definitive feature using wood shavings for lining the bowl was often done for Roman instruments. This does look like mandolin from the turn of the last century.

Another Berti labelled mandolin here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...1895-460263860

Very similar to yours though rosewood bowl. Seller states it was built by Giuseppe Berti in 1895. so maybe your luthier was incorrect. I never like to make a definite statement unless I am really sure. We can make some guesses. More later when I can get to my files on my computer.

Another Berti mandolin here: https://www.wilson55.com/auction/lot...lot=73517&sd=1

Post some more photos: the tailpiece end, from the sides, etc.

[NickR]

This mandolin we discussed which is clearly not the same but has the slotted type headstock style is dated as 1922 and has Roman features. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...-Mandolin-1922

[Jim Garber]

Here is another Berti mandolin with a flat peghead and no fluting but similar scratchplate shape:

[Jim Garber]

I have another example in my files with some rather poor photos. However in the description of this old eBay listing it said: "The label is shaped like the label on a wine bottle neck. On the inside at the base of the neck, hand written in ink, are the initials that look like "CRO" followed by the number 1680."

I am not sure what the scribbling on the OP's mandolin neck block reads but I don't see CRO nor do I know what those letters mean. There was not photo of the neck block in the old listing.

[Capitano]

You should post a photo of the tuners as they can help date an instrument.

Thanks. Here are a couple of photos of the tuners. (Only one is seen here on the headstock as I was in the process of taking them off to give them a good clean!)

[Capitano]

Thanks for those links. Those mandolins certainly have characteristics very much like mine, especially the one on wilson55.com.

1737 is the number give to this particular mandolin, not the year.

That's what I thought and I am surprised that my Napolitan luthier contact seemed not to pick up on that. He wrote to me "the mandolin is not of that era", implying he thought it meant the year. Which must call into question his real expertise.

Post some more photos: the tailpiece end, from the sides, etc.

I will do so sometime soon.

[Capitano]

You should post a photo of the tuners as they can help date an instrument.

Thanks. Here are a couple of photos of the tuners. (Only one is on the headstock as I was in the process of taking them off to give them a good clean!)

[NickR]

Duplicate!

[NickR]

Those tuners do look old- no screws holding on the gears and the metal over the spindles as well suggest earlier than I had thought and are good quality. Tuners can be kept for many years, so they are not definitive but they do make me think the mandolin is older than I had first thought- so maybe 1900 is feasible. I would imagine they are German made and their style reminds me a little of the Seidel tuners used by Martin on their guitars until about 1900- although those had the gears screwed on and are far more ornate.

[Capitano]

Post some more photos: the tailpiece end, from the sides, etc.

Here are some more. (Pieces missing because in process of restoration.)

[NickR]

Interesting (hinged?) tailpiece. I think that this is another aspect- like the tuners and fluting that show this mandolin was quite expensive when new.

[Capitano]

Interesting (hinged?) tailpiece.

The tailpiece itself is fixed. What you see here is the hinged cover over the tailpiece.

[NickR]

You see this type of hinged tailpiece on US made mandolins- mainly made by Lyon & Healy- I have not seen them on the makers whose name are mentioned. I suppose they date from circa 1900 and were used up until the 1920s, I think.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/33452695875...p2047675.l2557

[Jim Garber]

Emberghers and probably other Roman mandolins have hinged tailpiece covers. There were probably suppliers in Rome who made them for the various shops.

[Capitano]

Taking out the screws to remove the tuners and tailpiece some of them were really difficult to budge and a couple of them are not in good condition, in particular the slots in the heads are almost gone. I would like to replace them but I can't find anything matching them even on the Internet. They are very thin (tapering up to 1.4 mm for the tailpiece, tapering up to 1.8 mm for the tuners) and of course have slotted heads. Would it be a crime to use screws of wider diameter and/or Phillips-head screws? Should I just make the best job I can with the original screws?

[brunello97]

I have only one other Berti to add to the conversation...and this one also is decidedly un-Roman, with vaguely Vinaccian influences in the design.

Just wondering if Berti was indeed a dealer... the quality of the Roman / Embergherian mandolin in Jim's link to the auction site seems at an altogether other level than this one.


Mick

[Richard500]

Taking out the screws to remove the tuners and tailpiece some of them were really difficult to budge and a couple of them are not in good condition, in particular the slots in the heads are almost gone. I would like to replace them but I can't find anything matching them even on the Internet. They are very thin (tapering up to 1.4 mm for the tailpiece, tapering up to 1.8 mm for the tuners) and of course have slotted heads. Would it be a crime to use screws of wider diameter and/or Phillips-head screws? Should I just make the best job I can with the original screws?

Can’t give you specific references to tiny wood screws, but places that supply modelers might be a start. Not an authority on the appearance of repairs, but I would avoid Phillips head screws since their presence indicates recent restoration or construction. Since those tuners may not be removed for another hundred years, putting worn screws back in will not be a concern. I would definitely keep those tuners, even if not wonderfully smooth. If they operate smoothly unstrung, but get difficult under string pressure, it can be the fit to the headstock rather than the tuner, but check all alignments when installing.

[Capitano]

Any tips on cleaning the soundboard?

[Jim Garber]

Taking out the screws to remove the tuners and tailpiece some of them were really difficult to budge and a couple of them are not in good condition, in particular the slots in the heads are almost gone. I would like to replace them but I can't find anything matching them even on the Internet. They are very thin (tapering up to 1.4 mm for the tailpiece, tapering up to 1.8 mm for the tuners) and of course have slotted heads. Would it be a crime to use screws of wider diameter and/or Phillips-head screws? Should I just make the best job I can with the original screws?

Try Micro-Mark. Here’s one flathead screw though I am not sure yours are brass: https://www.micromark.com/Flat-Head-Screw-Package-of-25

[pops1]

Sometimes you can dress the slot with a hacksaw or a jewelers saw if you are careful and make them useable again.

[Capitano]

Any tips on cleaning the soundboard?

I found a variety of answers here: https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...d-Mandolin-top.

[Capitano]

Those tuners do look old- no screws holding on the gears and the metal over the spindles as well suggest earlier than I had thought and are good quality.

They are extremely stiff even when unstrung. I took them off to clean and while they are wet they turn reasonably well but as soon as they are dry it takes a real effort to turn some of the keys. I suppose the only solution will be to keep them lightly oiled?

[Capitano]

I would definitely keep those tuners, even if not wonderfully smooth. If they operate smoothly unstrung, but get difficult under string pressure, it can be the fit to the headstock rather than the tuner, but check all alignments when installing.

They are extremely stiff even when unstrung. I took them off to clean and while they are wet they turn reasonably well but as soon as they are dry it takes a real effort to turn some of the keys. I suppose the only solution will be to keep them lightly oiled?