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Thread: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

  1. #1

    Default Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    I was torn between this new thread- or adding to the eBay listing that will not get a bid! This is a wonderful mandolin- shame about the tailpiece but the price needs to be dropped by over $34,000! Bob Carlin's book shows this mandolin in an early 1902 ad on page 44. I don't know if it is featured, elsewhere.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/23483899763...emCondition=10

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  3. #2
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    I was torn between this new thread- or adding to the eBay listing that will not get a bid!
    My first thought was that it belonged in the other thread.

    I had one of these come through my hands many years ago. I couldn't get a fraction of that price on resale. Maybe times have changed but I doubt it.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  5. #3

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    So it wasn’t a one-off presentation model, which might have some value to a collector. As a catalog item, anyone guess how many were sold?
    I also think there was a slipped decimal point problem, not an excess of optimism.

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    My first thought was that it belonged in the other thread.

    I had one of these come through my hands many years ago. I couldn't get a fraction of that price on resale. Maybe times have changed but I doubt it.
    That's an extraordinary Regal, Nick.
    The bling is a bit clunky but the craftwork is impressive.
    The wood on the neck is awesome.

    Question: how did that clownshoe case get so destroyed on such a fine mandolin...which appears in pretty good condition?

    Maybe it's not the original case....


    When I was working in Florence, I used to pass an antique shop which specialized in old scientific equipment. 17th c. stuff, maybe some maybe older. They had a whole range of early telescopes, transits and other optical pieces in there.
    Beautiful brass and silverwork in exquisite cases.

    I asked the owner how many of these old telescopes were still around.
    He said maybe 75% or more.
    Why?
    Because people kept them in their cases and took care of them.

    Here's some images for posteriority.



    I'm still wondering, Nick, why you opt to post this and the other great finds you turn up in the "Ebay" section instead of the "Bowlbacks of Note" thread where they would seem to be well situated.

    The BoN thread is the most comprehensive collection of examples and expertise (and speculation) on bowlback mandolins that likely has ever been assembled.

    The thread name is helpful for a search, but things can get buried here among all the other instruments showing up in this catch-all thread.

    Just a thought regarding your future discoveries!

    Mick
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  7. #5

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Mick, I was wondering about "bowlbacks of note" but I also thought about the "no bids " thread as well- so I have been somewhat conflicted! By all means add it to that august collection!
    There is a similar mandolin in Bob Carlin's new book but it is not the same- but probably at the same level of build etc. The fact that it probably appears in an ad as I mentioned earlier, does not mean it was mass produced- the ad itself is a trade ad aimed at recruiting dealers- it is headlined "The Dawn of a Brighter Day" for dealers who sign up to be Regal retailers.

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    Mick, I was wondering about "bowlbacks of note" but I also thought about the "no bids " thread as well- so I have been somewhat conflicted! By all means add it to that august collection!
    There is a similar mandolin in Bob Carlin's new book but it is not the same- but probably at the same level of build etc. The fact that it probably appears in an ad as I mentioned earlier, does not mean it was mass produced- the ad itself is a trade ad aimed at recruiting dealers- it is headlined "The Dawn of a Brighter Day" for dealers who sign up to be Regal retailers.
    Thanks, Nick....

    I realize the key thing is to include an easily searchable thread name...as you did...but imho, some of these threads, like the "no bid" thread are for a good laugh or an ironic reply.

    Folks who are into bowlbacks and knowledgeable might not likely access those as often, if at all.

    Posting in BoN thread will get the most experienced eyes on the mandolins of interest.


    For me, the outrageous price tag on the Regal isn't of interest, or humor, at all.

    Or even that it's on Ebay.

    It's a fantastic example from a builder (and a city) that quickly became overshadowed by its Chicago and Kalamazoo neighbors.

    Just my dos centavos....

    I'll try and cross link this when I get another free moment here.

    You turn up so many interesting instruments here...I'm just interested in you getting them in front of as many knowledgeable and interested eyes as possible.


    Mick
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  9. #7

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    I wonder if this mandolin style might have been offered to Regal retailers as a sort of showpiece instrument- or flagship for their line at that time; so it could have been produced in some numbers- but possibly not that many.

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    My 2¢: I like that you opened a thread of a more serious nature to discuss this fine-looking instrument. I also think it's deserving of being on the no-bid thread, only because of the bonkers price. People do use that thread to engage in some jollity, which does have some merits. So if it is being discussed simultaneously on two threads with very different attitudes and raison d'êtres, I believe there's room for that.

    But I will reiterate what I said over there - someone who knows what's what about bowlbacks ought to contact the seller and try to give him a better idea of the instrument's value. It would help him succeed in his endeavor to get what it's worth for it.

    We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming, already in progress.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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  11. #9

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    I missed your post- that happens with that category because I don't necessarily know where it begins and miss new entries.
    I have sent the seller some info and mentioned that bowl backs do not attain the prices that one might expect if unacquainted with vintage instruments and the vagaries thereof. I have sent a Reverb listing for a Martin Style 6 described as "museum quality" and a very lovely instrument at less than $3,000. I don't know if it made that price.

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    No biggie. Thanks for doing that. It just seemed to me that the seller messed up, either by way of a typo, or by being utterly uninformed about what this instrument's value is and how he should price it. So rather than just engage in the usual frivolity, I thought the right thing to do would be to help him out a bit. I'm thoroughly unqualified to do that myself. But there are lots of members who are. Thanks again.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    If someone wants to spend a lot of money to buy this I'm all for it. I would however note that the tailpiece is wrong and either the neck or the tailpiece didn't originally line up because from the bottom the tailpiece has an issue that I can't see translated to the fingerboard so you might want to look at it really close. I'm sure they dressed this up as a sales tool but unfortunately that doesn't always translate to making it a great instrument.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  15. #12

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Well, I sent my message over and I got a reply that was a bit odd, I thought-it may have been humorous, I don't know but I have done my bit. The bottom line is, Bob Carlin's book has old Regal ads showing 42 rib mandolins to a high spec for about $40 plus.

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    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    I have had an ongoing conversation with seller already. As I mentioned in the no bid thread I think it was a CYA price in case it is a super valuable museum grade instrument.

    I asked the seller to move the bridge to the proper spot and take a photo from the side. He made a video.It looks like it needs a neck reset as far as I can see from the video. Here is a screen shot to show the neck angle.

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    Last edited by Jim Garber; Dec-30-2022 at 7:36pm.
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  17. #14

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    That's a very useful shot and it does not bode well. There was that Martin posted here earlier in the year which the owner swapped for a 1940s Gibson guitar and some cash. That mandolin needed some work- I don't recall it being a neck reset.

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    That's really a great little video.

    There's the classic top sinkage that was just being discussed in another thread on a Sicilian Cavelli bowlback.


    At the price of $35 large spending another $500 on a neck reset might not be a bad investment.

    It looks so clean otherwise, this is a real pity to see.

    With all that bling and trigger work around the neck joint a reset would be a fussy job.


    If the fretboard wasn't such a Mother of Pearly Queen a shim or replacement board might be a straightforward temporary move if it included a bracing / stiffening of the top around the soundhole.

    But there's no guarantee on that.


    I've got a deep boat-back mandolin (with many of those annoying "Larson Traits") that I've often wondered whether the neck joint design feature was in some way in response to this problem in bowlbacks and not only more expedient way to make a bowl, or barge, actually.


    Given the adjustments that CF Martin and LEmbergher made in this area, it makes you think that folks were aware of the potential problem early on and it isn't soley due to modern overstringing or stress / strain creep over decades under tension.



    Mick
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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    The seller informed me that he took the sale down and will keep the instrument. Oh well…
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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    The seller informed me that he took the sale down and will keep the instrument. Oh well…
    Indianapolis Sulla Prateria

    Not the place where one would guess beautiful bowlback mandolins would arise from, but there you have it.


    I have never played an Indiana Regal.

    Can anyone speak to their own sound, their voice?

    Mick
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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    Indianapolis Sulla Prateria

    Not the place where one would guess beautiful bowlback mandolins would arise from, but there you have it.


    I have never played an Indiana Regal.

    Can anyone speak to their own sound, their voice?

    Mick
    I have never played one but this guy in 1901 supposedly used the brand exclusively:

    Click image for larger version. 

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  22. #19

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    That was some real "purple prose" on the Regal mandolin. So, the sale is off? It reminded me a bit of this mandolin which was discussed here a couple of years ago and is still available for a mere $7k or so- a lot for a Lyon & Healy bowlback. Mind you, this seller also wants $17k for a Kay archtop and $1200 for a Harmony Supertone guitar, so he aims high, it seems! The "King David" mandolin:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/27382974898...0AAOSwrQ5cQlLJ

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Quote Originally Posted by NickR View Post
    So, the sale is off? ]
    That's how it looks. I noticed a couple of changes since the last time I looked, specifically to the title and price, which he changed to $8k before closing. Also noteworthy:

    This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available.

    Here's the new title. Who knows, it may come back.

    1800s Regal vintage mandolin - mother of pearl everywhere
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    I always attempt to not get dazzled by the shiny things because when I was actively dealing in vintage instruments I got burned pretty bad a couple of times. So let's ignore the bling for a minute. I suspect but obviously couldn't tell without holding the instrument that the neck is off a bit. It might be twisted I don't know and don't really care a whole lot but it appears that the original tailpiece, now gone, was pretty much where the current non-original tailpiece is. Either Regal was so bad at centering things that they totally missed on the lyre inlay or that there is a lineup issue on the neck. Yes, I know it happens on F models and A models, I've owned a few that went back, but I'm not sure this wasn't an issue from the beginning.

    Edgerton's Conjecture:

    A virtually unplayed instrument that is decades old may have remained in perfect condition because it had issues that affected the owners ability to play it early on its life and was placed under the bed because they didn't know what else to do with it.
    If it hadn't been played I would think the tailpiece should still be there unless someone robbed it to make another mandolin playable and why would you do that on such a fine instrument? Perhaps someone had already decided it had issues. Somebody slams on a cheap Gibson style tailpiece many decades later and suddenly it's an 8K-35K instrument.

    Anyone that buys it better really want to own it.
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    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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  25. #22

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Bob Carlin's new book shows a very similar mandolin and it has that cherub on the pickguard. The tailpiece appears to be a crown but not solid sheet metal as with the style similar to the cloud but a delicate tracery, I think. On that basis, it may have just broken and was not considered worthy of a jeweller's attention to repair it. It's a shame because the current tailpiece is incongruous and sticks out like a sore thumb and as discussed looks wonky as well begging other questions.

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    I have never played one but this guy in 1901 supposedly used the brand exclusively:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you will indulge me for a moment to inject a brief tangential interlude ... I am blessed/cursed with curiosity, and so was intrigued about the whereabouts of a town as colorfully named as Anaconda. Apparently, there are three in the US, in Montana, Missouri, and Virginia. I played a hunch that the concert described in this article occurred in Montana. It seems I was correct, as another account of Mr. Siegel's visit appears in the form of a letter to the editor of a magazine called The Cadenza.

    This publication proved to be fascinating, devoted to "the interests of the banjo, mandolin, guitar, zither, harp and violin" - it says so right on the cover. The aforementioned letter appears on page 27. While scrolling in search thereof I noticed an article on pp. 4-5 exploring "The Relation of the Banjo to the Mandolin Orchestra," replete with musicological erudition. There is more to this magazine, such as an article about Japanese instruments, but I have already digressed from my digression. When I'm done here, I may take some time to explore the Café to see if this publication has been mentioned previously, in some more appropriate section. In closing, I'll aver that this seems to have been active during the height of the mandolin craze, and may provide those interested with much useful information about it.

    One can see that this letter tells of a concert given by Mr. Siegel in Anaconda on a different date in that same month of 1901, January 28th. He also visited the writer's studio in Butte.

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    We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming, already in progress.
    But that's just my opinion. I could be wrong. - Dennis Miller

    Furthering Mandolin Consciousness

    Finders Keepers, my duo with the astoundingly talented and versatile Patti Rothberg. Our EP is finally done, and available! PM me, while they last!

  27. #24

    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    Well, it is back, it seems for a modest $6,000 this time. I can't help but feel with the possible issues that it may have, that its value is in the hundreds- not thousands but there you go!

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/23484452868...b52c%7Ciid%3A1

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    Default Re: Regal-Indianapolis- 1902-Ornate

    I doubt he'd take $200, but that's about what I'd offer (in case I had to spend a lot on repairs/neck reset.)

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