Any Experience With Mixing Magnetic Pickup And Bridge Pickup?

[fcadamo]

Hello, I am having a custom electric violin made, but because this is a pickup question, I thought I might ask here as well. It will have an internal piezo bridge pickup and potentially a magnetic pickup. I met with a family friend who makes custom guitar and bass magnetic coil pickups about making me a custom mag pickup.

His concern about having a magnetic coil pickup in addition to the bridge pickup is that the magnetic pickup will hinder the sound from the bridge pickup. Essentially he say that because the bridge pickup has a high impedance while the magnetic pickup has a low impedance, the magnetic pickup *might* ruin the sound of the bridge pickup. He is wondering if we’d lose/ruin the sound/signal from the bridge pickup.

So, I thought this would be a good place to refer to. Magnetic pickups on a violin are not common, but are on mandolins! Does anyone here have any experience with mixing a magnetic coil pickup and a bridge pickup on their mandolin (hollow, semi-hollow, or solid)? If so, what were the results?

Here are two diagrams. The second drawing is the potential plan B (onboard preamp), but I would like to avoid that. If push comes to shove, I will probably just not switch to the middle switch position, where both the mag pup signal and bridge pup signals are mixed (or just not even solder anything to the third terminal of the switch).

Thank you for your help and advice!

[Mandobart]

I only have dual pickups on one instrument, my Eastman archtop guitar. JJB SBT and a Kent Armstrong floating neck magnetic pickup. I wired them both to a TRS jack (the mag pickup to the tip, JJB piezo to the ring). I then run the output to a Baggs MixPro preamp on my belt with a short TRS cable. The Mixpro allows me to go all mag, all piezo or blend the two. 1/4" mono cable output to amp or PA.

He's right about the different impedance values for mags and piezos. That's why you need a preamp that can handle two separate inputs, like the Mixpro, and you need to wire them separately (they can't both go to the tip of a mono TS jack). Neither of those plans in your picture will work as well as what I described.

I use monel strings (which are ferromagnetic). I don't know which violin strings would work with a magnetic pickup, but I would find out if I were you. All my fiddles use piezoelectric soundboard transducers mounted under the soundboard, opposite the bridge feet contact points.

[fcadamo]

I wired them both to a TRS jack (the mag pickup to the tip, JJB piezo to the ring). I then run the output to a Baggs MixPro preamp on my belt with a short TRS cable. The Mixpro allows me to go all mag, all piezo or blend the two. 1/4" mono cable output to amp or PA.

This is good to know. So you had no issues balancing the signals of both pups with both going to one jack (so as long as it 1 pup can go to the tip and ring respectively)? I have an LR Baggs Gigpro right now, but that's good to know about the Mixpro.

He's right about the different impedance values for mags and piezos. That's why you need a preamp that can handle two separate inputs, like the Mixpro, and you need to wire them separately (they can't both go to the tip of a mono TS jack). Neither of those plans in your picture will work as well as what I described.

Yup, I think this is how we can make it work, hinging on a stereo TRS jack and a 2 channel preamp. That's great info!

I use monel strings (which are ferromagnetic). I don't know which violin strings would work with a magnetic pickup, but I would find out if I were you. All my fiddles use piezoelectric soundboard transducers mounted under the soundboard, opposite the bridge feet contact points.

There are brands of majority steel violin strings (many videos online of people "fiddling" around with mag pups on their violins). I will have a piezo bridge pup (Eric Aceto) in addition to the potential (now probable) mag pup.

Dave Burham of DBCV is making the violin and Scott Petersen of Harmonic Design Pickups will be making the custom pup. I cannot recommend them enough.

[Tom Wright]

I tinkered with magnetic violin pickups, which are a challenge given the planar motion of the strings. Pole pieces in between the strings will sense the horizontal motion, but the tone may be pinched.

Piezo and magnetic are so different in signal strength and impedance, so combining may not work without separate channels.

I did succeed, long ago, in combining a piezo bridge and magnetics on a Les Paul, without a preamp in between, so volume controls might be enough.

I like Aceto pickups but they are very bright in my experience, so separate EQ on your two signals is likely necessary. Good luck.

[Explorer]

I've used electronics from EMG in the past to mix piezo and magnetic signals on guitar. I've also had guitars from Parker and others which had such options stock.

I'm fairly certain that there are battery-powered active preamps on the market from various sources, beyond EMG. EQ, mix levels between pickups, and only one cable needed? Yes, please!

[Tavy]

As others have said, mixing these will not work due to the different impedances: you really need to move to a fully active system, with dual pre-amps to make on-board blending work, and good luck with that inside the small space of a violin!

[pops1]

I would do as Bart says, using the tip ring sleeve. The only difference is I would wire two cords to the one TRS plug that goes into the mandolin. Each cord can now go to the appropriate amp and you won't need to install electronics inside the instrument. You can but a cord with two sends like an XLR mic cord, but you will need to split them at the end anyway. If you use two cords I would secure them together in their length so it is more like one heavier cord.

[Mandobart]

I would do as Bart says, using the tip ring sleeve. The only difference is I would wire two cords to the one TRS plug that goes into the mandolin. Each cord can now go to the appropriate amp and you won't need to install electronics inside the instrument. You can but a cord with two sends like an XLR mic cord, but you will need to split them at the end anyway. If you use two cords I would secure them together in their length so it is more like one heavier cord.

The Mixpro will do the mixing for you. You can go all magnetic, all piezo or blend them however you like. All external to the instrument. One TRS cord to the Mixpro, one TS cord to an amp or PA board. Less gear to carry, fewer connections to fail, nothing inside the instrument but passive pickups - no batteries to leak or change.

You can use a TRS to two TS connector splitter to send each pickup's output to a completely different amp. I've done that at home sending my mag to my old Peavey 130 and the SBT to my Carvin AG300. Neither needs a preamp. So great, I don't need the belt mounted Mixpro or short TRS cable - now I just need the splitter, two long TS cables, and two 30 lb amps to haul....

There are very likely other ways to do this or other brands besides Baggs. I don't believe there is a simpler way to achieve dual pickup output in this application, but you can always make it more complex, difficult and expensive.

[j. condino]

I just got in from my new year's gig playing upright bass with two pickup systems. I mix & match multiple pickups all of the time & currenlty have seven different models. None of them do everything perfect. The pizz vs. bowed difference is significant among all of them. The magnetic pickups on an acoustic instrument primary purpose is for high volume situations. While piezos are much more sensitive to feedback, if I mount up a magnetic KRIVO, I can use my 900 watt head and a 4 x 10 cab into blissful ear damage levels with zero feedback. The magnetic pickup is much more responsive to my pedalboard, so it gets all of the funky & spaceship landing noises, crybaby, & overdives, as well as octave pedals. It also seems to need a short first cable run direct into a preamp or the gain is too low. My VIC's piezo pickup is so hot I can run it straight into the amp if needed.

With the magnetic pickup, you'll be limited to steel core strings; I use Thomastics: steel core, steel middle, & steel outer. The piezo works with all of the newer syntheitic (or guts!), but often they seem to pickup more of the sound of the plastic core than the combined layers of string that have a nice acoustic only voice.

I have two ways that I approach the night's setup. :

1) I have a two channel Acoustic Image head that I run separate cables for each pickup and EQ them each separate on the head.

2) I have multiple preamps and a blender all loaded up on a big pedalboard; each pickup gets its own until I like the output and then they go into a blender. Running multiple single channel pre amps is much cheaper than using a high quality two channel preamp. The only two channel preamps that I really like are the Felix, The Radial PZ, and the Headway. The Redeye is nice, but mainly just a pre and not much toneshaping or EQ.

3) Occasionally, I'll use two separate channeled wireless setups. The newer models are so small that they are much less cluttering than two big cables dragging around. You can keep a preamp on your strap or in your pocket and run it out of that if needed. The more I use it, the more I really like the wirelss. As a band we're making the decision for everyone to be wireless this year. Stage management is so much cleaner and you can have much more fun moving around the stage and into the audience.

'Hope some of that helps...

[fcadamo]

Tom, Tavy, pops, Explorer, and J. Condino,

Thank you for all your input! It's been super helpful. I think I'll try out Mandobart's method with a TRS to TRS to Baggs Mixpro. But it's good to know I have options with a TRS to split cables (have two preamps or EQs and then two amps). There's a lot of variability and variety for me as a musician.

Well, I'm going to take this to the guy making my pickup!

Thank you very much for the immense help all!!!

[fcadamo]

Bart,

What are some other mixers like the Baggs Mixpro? I've been trying to find others that specifically take a single TRS cable as an input.

Or if most 2 channel mixers are double TS inputs, then would I just need to get the TRS connector splitter then use two TS cables for the 2 TS input mixer? (This makes sense to me, given the many other 2 channel mixers that take two TS inputs).

Thanks.

[fcadamo]

There are very likely other ways to do this or other brands besides Baggs. I don't believe there is a simpler way to achieve dual pickup output in this application, but you can always make it more complex, difficult and expensive.

Bart,

What are some other mixers like the Baggs Mixpro? I've been trying to find others that specifically take a single TRS cable as an input.

Or if most 2 channel mixers are double TS inputs, then would I just need to get the TRS connector splitter then use two TS cables for the 2 TS input mixer? (This makes sense to me, given the many other 2 channel mixers that take two TS inputs).

Thanks.