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Thread: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin values

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    Default “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin values

    Hi folks,
    I’ve recently acquired a Washburn/Lyon and Healy Style A professional mandolin (asymmetrical, 13” scale length). The serial number dates it to 1927, which, according to Huburt Pleijsier’s book, was prior to purchase of the company or its patents by JR Stewart and then Tonk Brothers. The label, which states “Made and guaranteed by”, followed by the Lyon and Healy signature logo, also says Washburn. According to Pleijsier’s book, Washburn was Lyon and Healy’s line for their “premium” fretted instruments, and a look at his survey of the various labels used on mandolins from the teens and twenties show either “Lyon and Healy”, or “Washburn”, or like on mine, both, to various degrees of prominence.

    I’m researching this instrument’s value, and started with Vintage Guitar’s 2023 price guide, which, on page 610, puts a 1920’s Lyon and Healy Style A at between $6,400-$8,300 for “basic options” and up to $10,500 for “fancy options” (all of which seem highly inflated based on prices I’ve seen recently). Turn to Washburn (Lyon and Healy) on page 616, and a 1920’s professional style A is valued at $2700-$3,500. Huh?

    So:
    • Do I have a Lyon and Healy or a Washburn, given that the company was one-and-the-same in 1927?

    • Why the wildly disparate values for these instruments (or does the Price Guide just have it wrong?)

    Can't wait to hear what people think on this!
    Thanks,
    Michael

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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    The way I understand it, Washburn was originally a product line of the Lyon & Healy company.
    Lyon & Healy was a vast enterprise, building many different kinds of instruments, operating retail stores that sold all kinds of musical stuff, and wholesaleing their own instruments.
    A fellow named Raymond Durham took over the company in 1927. He apparently was not interested in manufacturing instruments. In 1928, he sold off the band instrument manufacturing division to the Frank Holton Company, and sold the Washburn patents, the rights to manufacture Washburn instruments, and the manufacturing equipment to the JR Stewart company. Shortly after, he sold the wholesale division and the Washburn name to Tonk Brothers, who continued to sell Washburn instruments. When the depression hit shortly afterward, Tonk apparently severely reduced or eliminated their orders for Washburn instruments, and JR Stewart was forced into bankruptcy. Tonk then acquired all remaining rights to the Washburn name, and had the mandolins and guitars manufactured by Regal. The remains of the Lyon & Healy company remained an independent entity.

    All of that said and done, it is probable that most of the L & H and Washburn carved mandolins were built in the Lyon & Healy factory. It is possible that some of the last carved mandolins may have been built in the Stewart factory. While the mandolins remained in the catalog after Stewart went under, I do not believe Regal built any of them, and that any of the few mandolins that were actually sold were leftover stock.

    What a mess.

    ================================================== ======

    As far as the VG Price Guide is concerned, I am not aware of any L & H or Washburn A's that have been listed for anywhere near $8000+ and sold. Even after the recent feeding frenzy, they still seem to list in the $4500 to $5500 range in good condition, no matter what name is on the label.

    I have found the Price Guide to be most accurate for electric guitars, basses, and amplifiers, slightly less accurate for big brand acoustic guitars, and often very inaccurate for mandolins, banjos, and less well-known acoustic guitars. In other words, I think the Price Guide just got it wrong.

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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    I did a little more research on the few "sold" listings I could find, and if anything, the $4500 - $5500 figure I gave above is a bit high.
    The market is pretty dry right now, but $3500 - $5000 would probably be more in line, depending on condition and who's selling it.

    Style A mandolas might bring more, and a mandocello might bring $8000 or more if it's in really good shape and someone wants it really badly.

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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    I agree with Bob. VG’s mandolin section as well as the banjo section leaves a lot to be desired. They had a uke expert revise the listings for ukes a few years ago. They usually have a finite group of dealers report their prices for each instrument and the do some statistical calculations which probably work out nicely for guitars and basses, but not for mandolins. We just don’t get respect.

    It is funny that I have noticed that L&H A’s have stayed close to $4000-5000 but that the B’s and C’s have risen higher. I am unsure of the accuracy of the serial number list in Hubert’s book. It is a bit confusing and dating might be better done by labels and features. Maybe Hubert can post here any updates?
    Jim

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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    I also agree with Bob and Jim above that is it almost certain most of the L & H and Washburn carved mandolins were built in the Lyon & Healy factory before the sale of that division. Even though mandolins remained in various catalogs after Stewart went under and after Lyon & Healy sold, it is unlikely that Regal actually built any of them, even though Regal indeed made many guitars to be sold as Washburns for Tonk Bros. I have what is effectively a Lyon & Healy/Washburn style A that is branded as a Regal, identical to the prior examples except this one is finished in a sunburst style typical of Regal made guitars from the mid to late 1930's. So it seems highly likely that a few mandolins were actually leftover stock bought by Tonk Bros, perhaps in the white, and at most, finished in the Regal factory. I also agree that of all the style A's I have seen advertised for sale in the last 5-10 years, I can recall none that were priced over $5,000 - most commonly priced in the $3,500 to $4,500 range in very good condition.

    Mark
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Mark, this is fun to see. Do you have a photo of the Regal label or 'brand' on this?

    The so-described "mess" was certainly a circular one as L+H originally acquired the Indianapolis Regal company along with a lot of bowlback mandolins 'in the white' that they apparently finished in their Chicago facility.

    However convoluted the story is of the intertwining relationships between the Chicago instrument builders and dealers, I find it remarkable just how much information folks have sorted through and made an attempt at formatting and publishing.

    Folks have been writing about the ancient Egyptians for a few thousand years and are still figuring things out.

    I'll cut Keef some slack and look forward to his "Volume II".

    Mick
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Mick - I added a photo of the Regal label above. The whole Chicago intertwined group of manufacturers is a very interesting story indeed. Catalog sales were the way of the world and so many instruments were sold thru those means, it was incredible. Gibson's largest customer in the 30's in terms of number of units sold was Montgomery Wards....

    Mark

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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    I don't see why a Washburn 5283 should cost less than a Lyon & Healy A.
    Quote Originally Posted by mjbee View Post
    The serial number dates it to 1927
    Nope. There isn't enough information about these instruments to tie serial numbers specifically to dates, especially dates in the latter half of the 1920s. If your instrument says "Style A" and not "Style 5283" it's certainly earlier than 1927.
    Vintage Guitar’s 2023 price guide, which, on page 610, puts a 1920’s Lyon and Healy Style A at between $6,400-$8,300 for “basic options” and up to $10,500 for “fancy options”
    No idea what is meant by "basic" or "fancy" options. Some labels are marked "Special" or "Professional" but it's hard to say what that meant. A few instruments have longer fretboard extensions, but there aren't many "options" that I have seen. There is, of course, the Bernardo de Pace signature model Washburn 5283, but there can't be more than a handful of those.

    But in general, those L&H prices are above market and the Washburn prices are below market.
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    I'll cut Keef some slack and look forward to his "Volume II".
    It was no criticism of Keef/Hubert at all, mostly the oddness of L&H restarting their serial numbering multiple times. Also changing their branding and specs over the years and then the changes rendered on fires and takeovers, etc. Yes, facts get uncovered over the years. Some time ago no one ever looked at FON on Gibsons, now we look at that first. So, it goes.
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    But in general, those L&H prices are above market and the Washburn prices are below market.
    I should note that there's a refinished 5283 with a lot of repairs currently for sale in the Classifieds, listed by a dealer known for above-market prices, and that dealer is asking only $1,800. Maybe someone there looked at the Vintage Guitar price guide? I showed the ad to a friend who's looking for a Style A, and he did express some doubt that the 5283 and the Style A are the same thing. So that perception is out there, even if it's not necessarily supported by the facts.
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful and thorough input. Mr.mando, thought mine was a ‘27 based on the type of label and the sn, , but you may be right that it’s bit earlier given the lack of certainty about dates and serial number coordination. Mine is short scale and asymmetrical and has an extended fingerboard (fancy?!?) My takeaway is that Vintage Guitar needs to hire one of you to work on the mandolin section of their price guide!

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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Quote Originally Posted by mjbee View Post
    Thanks, everyone, for your thoughtful and thorough input. Mr.mando, thought mine was a ‘27 based on the type of label and the sn, , but you may be right that it’s bit earlier given the lack of certainty about dates and serial number coordination.
    Is it labeled Style A or Style 5283?

    Do you have Hubert's book? Page 110 has a collection of mandolin labels — but the ones you usually find in carved L&H/Washburn mandolins are the ones Hubert calls "1917" and "1925." MarkD's sunburst mandolin, of course, has a Regal label; he is something of an expert on Regal labels and can probably nail the mandolin down to within a year or two on that basis.
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    As a proud owner of a modern low-end Washburn (two, actually, as my banjo is too), I deeply appreciate all this information. (Mine will never reach 5k, and probably not even 1k, for the both of them, but I don't care. They're priceless to me).
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Is it labeled Style A or Style 5283?

    Do you have Hubert's book? Page 110 has a collection of mandolin labels — but the ones you usually find in carved L&H/Washburn mandolins are the ones Hubert calls "1917" and "1925."
    Labeled "Style A", like the photo of the label in Hubert's book marked "1925". The corresponding description on the facing page suggests those labels were used between 1922 and 1928. On page 236, he states that mandolin serial numbers began at 1 again in 1922, and production was about 850 instruments a year. So that might put my #1652, at about 1924 or so. But I also read that styles A, B +C were numbered separately from the other lines of mandolins, so who knows for sure? Affirming that this is mid-twenties is precise enough for me. Almost a century and still looking and sounding great!

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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Note also that the Style A was renamed Style 5283 in the 1925 catalog (p. 161), so it's reasonable to assume that your mandolin was built before that catalog was issued.
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    I agree with Jim on prices, I have a 1925 with a Washburn label Style A that I purchased about 10 years ago for only $3,800.

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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Quote Originally Posted by mjbee View Post
    On page 236, he states that mandolin serial numbers began at 1 again in 1922, and production was about 850 instruments a year. So that might put my #1652, at about 1924 or so. But I also read that styles A, B +C were numbered separately from the other lines of mandolins, so who knows for sure?
    Hubert's most recent conjecture, which he posted on another thread here, is that initially the individual styles were numbered separately, but at some point L&H gave up on that idea and started using a single number series regardless of instrument style. He came to that conclusion after the book was published.

    My mandola is 1500, a nice round number — I thought that meant perhaps it was the first in a new series back in '24, but the recent emergence of No. 693 kinda shoots that theory down. https://vintage-instruments.com/shop...-1925-chicago/
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    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmando View Post
    Hubert's most recent conjecture, which he posted on another thread here, is that initially the individual styles were numbered separately, but at some point L&H gave up on that idea and started using a single number series regardless of instrument style. He came to that conclusion after the book was published.

    [/url]
    Correct Martin, and thanks - the L&H/Washburn carved top mandolin serial number "system" (...) is explained here:

    https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...=1#post1886702

  22. #19

    Default Re: “Washburn” vs “Lyon and Healy" branded style A mandolin valu

    I think there may be one value inflection point between earlier vs. later L&H/Washburn mandolins, which is when they switched from varnish to a lacquer finish. I presume the varnished examples would (should) be more valuable.

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