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Thread: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddle?

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    Default Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddle?

    I'm going Tuesday to play an Eastman and Cumberland mandolin for the first time, and compare my old MK Legacy. I've played a Washburn Americana and a The Loar 5XX and didn't feel they were better than my own humble axe. So I'm trying a Kentucky MD-250 and an Eastman 305 to see if I feel differently.

    If they don't really bring any more to the table, I'm thinking of 'fixing' mine up and just play it till I can get into something like a used Silverangel or similar. Re. fixing up, would the addition of a heavier tailpiece, the deer antler saddle and nut from RSW, and a Cumberland bridge do anything for me? Or is it just marketing? Is this an "if it ain't broke" situation?

    I like the feel, tone and volume as is. And I still find it beautiful. It's a faded light caramel color with only the top bound. Haven't seen another like it. But I'm a tinkered.

    I definitely need to find my fretfiles and dress them up. Currently I think I have it set up pretty well, and the neck is dead straight and it'll hold a pick under the strings at the 5th fret. But the bridge is getting thin from sanding and the frets need love. Possibly better tuners.
    Last edited by Snakum; Jan-08-2023 at 5:45pm.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakum View Post
    I like the feel, tone and volume as is. And I still find it beautiful. It's a faded light caramel color with only the top bound. Haven't seen another like it.
    There’s nothing to fix. Continue to like it until you find one that you like as much or better.
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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakum View Post
    Would the addition of a heavier tailpiece, the deer antler saddle and nut from RSW, and a Cumberland bridge do anything for me?
    Tone and volume are the two variables that are under consideration. Different tailpieces and nuts will not alter anything significantly on those. Adding an antler/bone saddle to a "possibly piece of junk" bridge makes no sense.

    I will say this about bridges; If I was tasked to determine once and for all whether a mandolin was giving all that it had to give, I would want to have a Cumberland Acoustics Full-Foot Bridge expertly fitted and allowed to settle in for a few days before deciding. The difference those make can range from nothing to amazing.
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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    That's why I mentioned the Cumberland bridge.

    It's definitely getting one of those. They have a great reputation. That is assuming I'm not blown away by the Eastman or Kentucky.

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    Registered User Charles E.'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    You will not be blown away by the KM-250 (who is?) but you might like the Eastman over your MK.
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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Yeah ... I don't really know how good my mandolin is. Gonna ask the owner to play all 3 for me to listen and get his opinion. He has a rep as a straight shooter. Not just pushing a sale. I've seen small shop US mandos like the Silverangel and others in the sub $2k range. I won't be surprised if I just play what I have till I can afford a bigger step up.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    If your MK is playable and you're not living hand-to-mouth, I suggest saving your money for a much better mando rather than a "possibly a little better, but still more or less entry level" mando such as the 305 or 250.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    I took the heavy cover off my tailpiece because I liked the tone better with it off. Heavier doesn't always mean better sound. If you are thinking of deer antler, use a shed antler, not one that has been taken off a deer after the hunt. The antler taken off a deer from the hunt will be hollow with marrow inside. The shed antler will have closed off the blood supply, then fall off, leaving a solid antler. You might think about going to a butcher and getting a piece of cow bone. Nuts and saddles you purchase are usually made from cow bone.
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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    I had a student that bought a MK mandolin and he played it for 15 years or more in lessons. That mandolin just got better and better sounding. We'd try it against more expensive mandolins and it held its own. Every once in a while one of the lower priced mandolins does that. If you like yours what the heck, play it! That's what it is for!

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    If you need one more opinion pointing out the folly in making any such upgrades to your MK, you have mine.
    too many strings

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    I do like it, and I like it better than the two lower end currently available mandos I've tried. Tomorrow I'll get to try Eastman, Kentucky, and Collings and will have the owner take a look at my MK. I've been curious about what year and model it was because I couldn't find a picture that matched mine re. color and top binding only. I finally found it on a sponsor's site. It's an early 2000s Korean made Legacy Plus. I think it's a gorgeous little thing. Still excellent finish with just a very few light dings or scratches that I can find. Musta spent a lot of it's life in the case. I know my FIL was mainly a fiddle and banjo guy.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    I'll say those early 2000 MKs got good reviews at the time. Just Prior to Eastman bursting onto the Mandolin scene. They were/are pretty variable. Some were pretty good and others real thick finished dogs. Count yourself fortunate to have a good one. I think the CA Bridge and then playing with different strings and picks will give the most fun for improving the voice.

    You have a BROAD range of mandolins to try tomorrow. See what feels good in your hands and how they sound. Then you can decide if they are worth the expense or not. Have someone play them AT you as well.

    Play cautiously with tinkering as sometimes we fiddle with something until we break it.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Quote Originally Posted by JEStanek View Post
    I'll say those early 2000 MKs got good reviews at the time. Just Prior to Eastman bursting onto the Mandolin scene. They were/are pretty variable. Some were pretty good and others real thick finished dogs. Count yourself fortunate to have a good one. I think the CA Bridge and then playing with different strings and picks will give the most fun for improving the voice.
    Interestingly enough, after my last setup attempt a week ago I switched to .11s and to my thick triangle guitar picks from .10s and very thin, tiny teardrop picks. My wife even commented on how much louder/thicker it sounds. I think a new nut, saddle, and CA bridge and maybe having a pro setup and fret dress might make a significant difference. I might forget about an upgrade for a while.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Bridges, tail pc.s, on and on...

    Just play the mandolin, play it and play it, that's what matters.
    Stay focused on music.

    Billy

    ps, I'm a gearhead so trust me, play your mandolin and don't fret about the rest of it.
    It's what keeps me going for at least 40+ years now.
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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakum View Post
    I'm going Tuesday to play an Eastman and Cumberland mandolin for the first time, and compare my old MK Legacy. I've played a Washburn Americana and a The Loar 5XX and didn't feel they were better than my own humble axe. So I'm trying a Kentucky MD-250 and an Eastman 305 to see if I feel differently.

    If they don't really bring any more to the table, I'm thinking of 'fixing' mine up and just play it till I can get into something like a used Silverangel or similar. Re. fixing up, would the addition of a heavier tailpiece, the deer antler saddle and nut from RSW, and a Cumberland bridge do anything for me? Or is it just marketing? Is this an "if it ain't broke" situation?

    I like the feel, tone and volume as is. And I still find it beautiful. It's a faded light caramel color with only the top bound. Haven't seen another like it. But I'm a tinkered.

    I definitely need to find my fretfiles and dress them up. Currently I think I have it set up pretty well, and the neck is dead straight and it'll hold a pick under the strings at the 5th fret. But the bridge is getting thin from sanding and the frets need love. Possibly better tuners.
    "Heavier tailpiece" -- If you're talking about a James tailpiece, you may find it isn't heavier, but it is extremely well made, solid and feature rich. Other cast tailpieces, yes, you're probably adding mass with them.

    "Cumberland bridge" -- While I personally have not replaced my original bridge on my main playing mandolin, Cumberland bridges are extremely highly rated, but you have a lot of choices to make regarding which of their model bridges to buy, and proper installation is imperative. To do them well for your mandolin, the decisions and the installation both take a fair bit of study, so I'd suggest don't rush into this.

    "Deer antler saddle and nut" -- Bone in general is unquestionably a good thing for the nut regarding stability and longevity. Bone for the saddle might be good or bad, depending on your taste, as it will change your mandolin's tone, and it will probably also change volume. You could also try an aluminum nut and saddle if you really want to experiment. Before jumping into either a bone or aluminum saddle I'd suggest hearing it on a mandolin in person first. Both of these items will also require study, precision tools and a very well trained hand to install properly. Personally, I prefer unicorn horn; unicorns are not on any endangered list and they shed their horns every winter, so all a person has to do is find them.

    There are a world of changes that can be made on an otherwise stock mandolin in order to make it yours...

    As an example, on my main playing mandolin (2002 F-9) I've installed a James tailpiece, a pickguard, an armrest and a ToneGard. And I've had a fret job done using Evo Gold frets, which also included replacing the nut, leveling the fingerboard and a complete setup. At that time I also had the neck re-profiled and speed-necked...

    I'm also a tinkerer, but after having replaced the nut and frets on other mandolins before, decided I'd like to see how well an expert does with the neck work, and I've been extremely pleased with the work that was done; having a pro do this work was definitely the right decision for me. Suffice it to say, someone who does this kind of work all the time gets a lot of practice, and I'd suggest the same consideration related to your nut, bridge and saddle work.

    Also keep in mind that doing work or having work done on your mandolin, no matter how well it is done, decreases originality and as a result it generally decreases resale value. If the mandolin in question is a lifetime instrument (as my F-9 is for me), maybe that doesn't matter for you, but if you intend to re-sell it, you might want to leave it stock so someone else can do their own "make it yours" work.

    Lastly, making changes may or may not absolutely improve the way your mandolin sounds. Human hearing is extremely subjective, and often perception is influenced by how much effort went into making the changes. And, if you're making a lot of changes at the same time, it is practically impossible to know which change(s) made any perceived improvement in sound. Additionally, some changes also require either a complete or partial setup, which further complicates trying to judge which changes made a difference.

    Best of luck with your decisions and with any changes you decide to move forward with.

    P.S. As you can see from my signature info, I've also got an MK, a 2016... I did add an armrest, pickguard and ToneGard to it so that in playing, it feels like my main playing mandolin; otherwise it is stock. This year MKs did come with a heavier welded brass tailpiece. Compared to my F-9, the MK sounds bright and brash, without the subtly muted Gibson tone, but it does cut through in a loud jam. It makes a nice backup mandolin for travel or less than ideal weather, and mostly because it cost very little during a blow-out sale, I consider it also to be a lifetime instrument for me.
    Last edited by dhergert; Jan-10-2023 at 8:34am.
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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Thanks for all the info, guys. Lots to digest.

    So ... I met with the guy local to my work who sells Kentucky, Eastman, and Collings. Also had a few used import and US. He looked over mine closely and played it a bit. I had no idea how loud this little thing is. Pretty sweet, too, and not harsh at all. He basically said he'd love to sell me a new one and take my money but I wouldn't really gain anything worth the hit till I got to the US models or very high end imports. He offered to let me play anything in the store but I didn't see the point. He really likes the MKs when set up properly, and I've done a full setup on mine. Twice, really. So I'm gonna rock on till I can afford a used A model Collings, Weber, Wienman, Clark, Ratliff, et al.

    BTW, he has a gorgeous new burgundy Collings A that has me slobbering.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakum View Post
    I'm going Tuesday to play an Eastman and Cumberland mandolin for the first time, and compare my old MK Legacy. I've played a Washburn Americana and a The Loar 5XX and didn't feel they were better than my own humble axe. So I'm trying a Kentucky MD-250 and an Eastman 305 to see if I feel differently.

    If they don't really bring any more to the table, I'm thinking of 'fixing' mine up and just play it till I can get into something like a used Silverangel or similar. Re. fixing up, would the addition of a heavier tailpiece, the deer antler saddle and nut from RSW, and a Cumberland bridge do anything for me? Or is it just marketing? Is this an "if it ain't broke" situation?

    I like the feel, tone and volume as is. And I still find it beautiful. It's a faded light caramel color with only the top bound. Haven't seen another like it. But I'm a tinkered.

    I definitely need to find my fretfiles and dress them up. Currently I think I have it set up pretty well, and the neck is dead straight and it'll hold a pick under the strings at the 5th fret. But the bridge is getting thin from sanding and the frets need love. Possibly better tuners.
    Don't throw good money after bad. Keep saving, and get yourself a 500 series Eastman like the MD-515/v. Considering all the "upgrades" your looking at spring for you've got to be at least half way to an MD-505 already.
    Eastman MD-514 (F body, Sitka & maple, oval hole)
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    And still saving my nickels & dimes & bottle caps & breakfast cereal box tops for my lifetime mandolin.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakum View Post
    Thanks for all the info, guys. Lots to digest.

    So ... I met with the guy local to my work who sells Kentucky, Eastman, and Collings. Also had a few used import and US. He looked over mine closely and played it a bit. I had no idea how loud this little thing is. Pretty sweet, too, and not harsh at all. He basically said he'd love to sell me a new one and take my money but I wouldn't really gain anything worth the hit till I got to the US models or very high end imports. He offered to let me play anything in the store but I didn't see the point. He really likes the MKs when set up properly, and I've done a full setup on mine. Twice, really. So I'm gonna rock on till I can afford a used A model Collings, Weber, Wienman, Clark, Ratliff, et al.

    BTW, he has a gorgeous new burgundy Collings A that has me slobbering.
    So ... I just saw the used Silverangel Econo A in the classifieds. That would be a 'forever' axe for me. I'm sure it'll be gone before next Thursday. If not ... might be mine.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakum View Post
    So ... I just saw the used Silverangel Econo A in the classifieds. That would be a 'forever' axe for me. I'm sure it'll be gone before next Thursday. If not ... might be mine.
    Aaaand it lasted just a few hours, as expected. But it gave me the idea to call KR and have him build one. The A style SA models are VERY reasonable.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    When you have the opportunity, do try instruments WAY over your budget, just to see what they feel like. And by "feel", I mostly mean response to your touch & technique. Of COURSE they'll sound good even if they're all different - and they will be! To date, probably the nicest mandolins FOR ME that I've tried were both in the $7K area, about 8-10 years ago (still drooling over a Czech Capek!). Yes, I've tried others up to the $20K range but was not overly enthralled, probably due to my own limitations rather than the instruments'. (One new Gibby at $15K REALLY disappointed!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakum View Post
    ... So I'm gonna rock on till I can afford a used A model Collings, Weber, Wienman, Clark, Ratliff, et al.
    On several occasions, I've been impressed enough in shops (Weber, Collings, Gibson, others) to follow-up with a 1-on-1 against my '90s Flatiron, only to decide that, for me, the Flatiron was still the one. Moral of the story: listen, feel, learn, and don't jump into change for the sake of change!
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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    I'm going back to the place near my work on Wednesday to pick up a new upright my wife fell in love with (she's a nurse and a soldier so she has money). So I'm gonna take him up on his offer to play the Eastmans and Collings.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Drop the mandolins and start playing that upright. You'll likely earn more $$$ in the next two years than you will in a lifetime with the mandolin and you'll have more fun & opportunity that you ever imagined as a musician....
    www.condino.com

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Hi James. You and I have conversed on TalkBass. Bass and lead guitar are my 'weekend money makers' while mandolin is is just for my own enjoyment. I don't make a living playing music. I think EMS pays poorly. But being a professional musician is several orders of magnitude worse, financially speaking.

    Next time I'm in Asheville visiting my son I need to bring my wife's S&R by the shop for a check-up.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    Quote Originally Posted by Snakum View Post
    I'm going Tuesday to play an Eastman and Cumberland mandolin for the first time, and compare my old MK Legacy. I've played a Washburn Americana and a The Loar 5XX and didn't feel they were better than my own humble axe. So I'm trying a Kentucky MD-250 and an Eastman 305 to see if I feel differently.

    If they don't really bring any more to the table, I'm thinking of 'fixing' mine up and just play it till I can get into something like a used Silverangel or similar. Re. fixing up, would the addition of a heavier tailpiece, the deer antler saddle and nut from RSW, and a Cumberland bridge do anything for me? Or is it just marketing? Is this an "if it ain't broke" situation?

    I like the feel, tone and volume as is. And I still find it beautiful. It's a faded light caramel color with only the top bound. Haven't seen another like it. But I'm a tinkered.

    I definitely need to find my fretfiles and dress them up. Currently I think I have it set up pretty well, and the neck is dead straight and it'll hold a pick under the strings at the 5th fret. But the bridge is getting thin from sanding and the frets need love. Possibly better tuners.
    I highly recommend CA bridges. All 3 of my mandolins have received these due to my luthier's recommendation and positive experience back in the early 2000s. Some will argue that the tone doesn't improve in every instrument. I believe many do, but also they're much easier to adjust than many cheaper bridges and have correctly proportioned saddles and bases, which many do not. As upgrades go, they're relatively inexpensive as well.

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    Default Re: Heavy tailpiece, Cumberland bridge, deer antler nut and saddl

    So I played a few mandolins today (all similar setups and same strings) when I picked up the Shen. Very surprising. The Eastman A models just weren't for me. I don't know if it was the larger neck or the setup or what, but I felt very 'clunky' on it compared to mine. Fingering felt a bit harder despite having the same strings as mine. Tone was somewhat muted compared to mine. Volume was very good, playing and listening. Mine cuts thru way better though.

    The smaller V neck on the Collings A was excellent. It felt very smooth. The tone was similar to my F model MK and cuts thru. It had slight but noticeably reduced volume compared to my MK and the Eastman As. But I have read that can change with playing time.

    As awesome and as beautiful as the Collings looked, felt and sounded, it didn't blow me away enough to buy it right now. I don't know if my lowly MK had fairy dust sprinkled on it or what. But I'm not sure I've played anything that I like better yet. Could be that I'm just used to it. But listening to other people play it the tone and volume differences are noticeable.

    God that Collings was a beautiful little thing.
    Last edited by Snakum; Jan-18-2023 at 3:06pm.

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