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Thread: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

  1. #1

    Default ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    My grandfather bought this mandolin some time in the vicinity of the 1930s from a door to door salesman. He never learned how to play it and it was already warped and cracked by the time I started playing guitar in the 80s.

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    I've done some research and it appears to share some features of Vega instruments, but there's no label and the headstock doesn't seem right. Plus it's got an odd neck/headstock join where the headstock is a separate piece of wood from the neck.
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    I'm hoping someone might be able to help me ID the instrument and based on what it is, if it's worth restoring.

    Thanks so much

  2. #2
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    I can't be sure and can really only go by a hunch but it does bear some resemblance to some of Angelo Mannello's mandolins. The most ornate of these are in the Metropolitan Museum's musical instrument collection. Mannello worked in New York and his fanciest instruments he made himself whereas others were made by various shops.

    This looks like a middle-range ornate one. I am not 100% sure of this. I do know that that method of neck construction is common among the makers in Napoli. Usually there is some veneer applied over a core and these always look to some people as needing repairs. Mannello did come from near Naples so may have built his personal instruments that way. His fancier ones did have that fancy headstock as well. Anyway there is a possibility that this is one of his though it also could be from of the better makers from Napoli as well.

    In any case, I would think it would be worth restoring though I am not sure who could do the work and how much it would cost. The crack in the bowl is the most obvious but that doesn't look too bad. There may be a few other issues we can't see as well as some cosmetic.

    You should let us know where you are located geographically and perhaps someone can suggest where to go to get it restored, if you choose to do so.
    Jim

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  3. #3

    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Thanks Jim!

    My grandparents lived in NYC at that time, in the Bedford-Stuyvesant area of Brooklyn. The family story is that he bought it from a door to door salesman, and my grandmother and mother always teased him about buying it and never learning to play it. It spent at least 40 years on a shelf in my sister's room collecting dust, and was in rough shape already when I was a kid.

    The headstock has veneer on both the front and back and the neck looks like it might, too.

    The only mandolin I've found with the same mermaid inlays is this one, apparently a 1930 Ciani. However there are substantial differences between this Ciani and mine (pickguard shape, fretboard extension, headstock shape)
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    I'm in Palm Springs, and while I'm perfectly comfortable scratch building solid body guitars, acoustics are beyond my skill set, and this is definitely acoustic!

  4. #4

    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    None of the mermaids I’ve met had wings.
    Anyway, a nice and decorative mandolin, probably close to playable. Appears to have (a common) bulge in the top between the fretboard and bridge which hasn’t been catastrophic in those many decades of strain, and the split in the bowl is something to discuss, very likely going to get a filler, so a little internal inspection and evaluating the fretboard isn’t going to be excessive. Personally, I think it’s worth it. Worst thing is finding a luthier who is ok with fixing bowl backs.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    None of the mermaids I’ve met had wings.
    Anyway, a nice and decorative mandolin, probably close to playable. Appears to have (a common) bulge in the top between the fretboard and bridge which hasn’t been catastrophic in those many decades of strain, and the split in the bowl is something to discuss, very likely going to get a filler, so a little internal inspection and evaluating the fretboard isn’t going to be excessive. Personally, I think it’s worth it. Worst thing is finding a luthier who is ok with fixing bowl backs.
    That "bulge" is being caused by the neck block (and neck) rotating up under tension and transferring that strain to the bowl and to the top which is forcing that bulge in response.

    You can see the consequence to the string action. Maybe not catastrophic, except to your fingers if you try to play it in this condition.

    Fixing a bowl crack is a slice of pie in constrast.

    If it were mine, I would try to stabilize the top from underneath with an Embergher / Martin / Vinaccia style reinforcing plate under the bulge area and install some Embergher style short braces to either side of the soundhole.

    You might be able to really reduce the height then of the bridge to get it into a nominally playable action.

    I've done this with an old Stridente or Lanfranco mandolin and while you lose some projection from the reduced neck angle and lower bridge, the mandolins tend to project pretty well on their own.

    It's a very attractive mandolin with the fluted maple bowl and overall vibe. If Jim is correct and this is a Manello, all the more reason to give the repair a go.

    Someone in the 'metropolitan area' can likely take this on.

    The repairs I'm suggesting aren't complicated by any means and would at least provide some playable insight into the quality of the mandolin and perhaps motivate for more substantial repair if needed.

    That said, I've had bowlbacks where once that bulge appeared, there was no stopping under string tension.

    If it is a Manello....I wonder what type of neck joint he used?

    Integral neck / neckblock as in the Italian fashion, or some type of dovetail or dowel joint as his American cousins were using.

    Jim...any information on that from the MM exhibit on Manello's work?

    Mick
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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    When I read that he bought it from a door to door salesman and saw Bed-Stuy I assumed Oscar Schmidt because that was their schtick at the time but that isn't an OS product.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    And at the headstock end, anyone know what the typical Italian joint consisted of? Just a long scarf joint, or something more complex? I have reason to inquire.
    And… door to door and street corner sales in NYC then as now were not necessarily formal! My dad’s violin changed hands in a paper bag on the street. Even before the Depression hit hard.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Wait, I may have that paper bag. Do you remember what it looked like?
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    And at the headstock end, anyone know what the typical Italian joint consisted of? Just a long scarf joint, or something more complex? I have reason to inquire.
    And… door to door and street corner sales in NYC then as now were not necessarily formal! My dad’s violin changed hands in a paper bag on the street. Even before the Depression hit hard.
    Richard, check out the Neapolitan bowlback thread that Sebastiaan reported on his building experience in Napoli. Message #32 shows him gluing up the neck / headstock.

    Mick
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    You asked the same question, but other than the photo of - a long scarf joint - it wasn’t answered. I had been thinking that would be not best considering how narrow that area ends up; perhaps only about one square inch of surface and nearly the worst grain directions. Assumed that something like a key or tenon was needed. Maybe it does work, helped by the headstock angle, which serves a different purpose. I think I’ll still add some beef on that repair.

  11. #11
    Mando-Accumulator Jim Garber's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    And at the headstock end, anyone know what the typical Italian joint consisted of? Just a long scarf joint, or something more complex? I have reason to inquire.
    And… door to door and street corner sales in NYC then as now were not necessarily formal! My dad’s violin changed hands in a paper bag on the street. Even before the Depression hit hard.
    We need John Maddock here! I am sure he has worked on quite a few Napoli mandolins.

    And I have a violin with the original paper bag so I know it is worth quite a bit more. Stradivari bags were made from the noprth side of the tres which explains their excellent tone.
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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    You asked the same question, but other than the photo of - a long scarf joint - it wasn’t answered. I had been thinking that would be not best considering how narrow that area ends up; perhaps only about one square inch of surface and nearly the worst grain directions. Assumed that something like a key or tenon was needed. Maybe it does work, helped by the headstock angle, which serves a different purpose. I think I’ll still add some beef on that repair.
    That's right, I did.

    From Sebastiaan's photo though, it looks like a straight up glue joint the way it is clamped up. One can imagine a complex joint there with some type of slot and tenon or an inserted spline, but I think we would have heard about it from him if there were. That would be a tricky bit of cutting / slotting which I have the feeling would have been highlighted if it was part of the learning process.

    In all the Italians bowls I have owned and worked on, I've never seen this joint fail, from 'normal' use, whatever that might be.
    There are considerable shear forces on the joint from the sting tension but there is also a lot of surface area to create a glued surface to resist that.

    Rotational forces from impact? Maybe not the ideal joint without increasing the surface area of the connection as you descibe.

    Some folks posit that the wrapped veneer on the neck contribute to the strenghth of the joint. The veneer is very thin, but it still likely it provides some assistance.

    Again, if this is from Manello....it is super interesting that he stuck with this assembly method. I'd be interested in hearing why the decision was made in the US to go with a one piece neck...and to move away from the softwoods used back home.

    Of course, the obvious benefits are there from the harder woods used here. Cutting the head profile into a one-piece softwood neck might have created / revealed situations in the grain that would have been actually weaker than the glued joint. Think of engineered lumber designed to help minimize and control shear failure (among other things.)

    Mick
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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Garber View Post
    We need John Maddock here! I am sure he has worked on quite a few Napoli mandolins.

    And I have a violin with the original paper bag so I know it is worth quite a bit more. Stradivari bags were made from the noprth side of the tres which explains their excellent tone.
    Hey what? Someone mention my name?

    They're like this:

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    Then wrapped in veneer which ties everything together. There tends to be a rather obvious join in the veneer where the junction between neck and headstock is, but that's just a cosmetic SNAFU.

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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Ah wait, it's actually a bit more complex, this image shows how some (very broken) bits go together:

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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Thanks John,
    Not sure I know what’s in that photo. Is the topmost piece some sort of added key that was glued to the neck under the fretboard, that then embeds in a taper inside the headstock? So that the joint is like a fork, or am I not seeing it properly. Or did the top piece just split from the neck?
    I have this ‘26 Calace, pictured, that I’ve been reticent to just saw into until I learned a bit more. And don’t have the cute tabletop CAT scanner that my dentist has.
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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Ah wait, it's actually a bit more complex, this image shows how some (very broken) bits go together:

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    John, you didn't have to break that one just to show us.....

    It looks to me like that top piece split off as Richard suggests above.

    Mick
    Last edited by brunello97; Jan-18-2023 at 2:49pm.
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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Not drawn very well, but DeMeglio's at least are like this:

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    I think I have a junked neck lying around somewhere that I really could chop sections out of....

    Richard: I'm sure you don't want to, but you will probably need to re-veneer that neck and remove a section of fretboard too, so by the time you've removed those the construction should be fairly clear anyway.

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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavy View Post
    Not drawn very well, but DeMeglio's at least are like this:

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    I think I have a junked neck lying around somewhere that I really could chop sections out of....

    Richard: I'm sure you don't want to, but you will probably need to re-veneer that neck and remove a section of fretboard too, so by the time you've removed those the construction should be fairly clear anyway.
    Thanks, John...that does look like a much stronger joint yet it requires the neck to be made of two pieces laminated together....which would certainly simplify making the notch to receive the headstock.

    I've got enough basket cases around here to try on autoposy on as well.

    I ran the question about the veneer's role in the neck performance past my structural engineer colleague (specializing in wood building construction, not mandolins of course). He's dubious of just how much of a role the veneer might actually play in the performance of the neck beyond the cosmetic. According to him, it can't add any more strength than it already has integral to itself. It's pretty thin stuff.

    As expected, he's fascinated by the bowl construction and transfer of forces from neck to neck block to bowl 'shell'.

    I'm attaching the photo Sebastiaan posted from the workshop he was in in Napoli this fall. I'll send him a PM and see if I can get him to join this conversation to better describe what they did. I'm not suggesting that DeMeglio or Calace wouldn't have done something very different.

    Mick
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    That DeMeglio joint doesn’t depend on the tensile strength of glue in the important area, but a plain scarf joint is 100% glue - so this is becoming interesting. About veneer adding strength, did Mick’s engineer know what the relative thicknesses of (especially old hand cut) veneers and necks are? I’m sure the veneering was largely intended for appearance, but again, it’s a matter of tensile strength parallel to grain versus cross, with the added (mostly unmeasured) properties of curly-grained veneers. If, say, the thicknesses (veneer both sides of neck) are around 1:10, the veneer could well be significant.

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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by brunello97 View Post
    I'm attaching the photo Sebastiaan posted from the workshop he was in in Napoli this fall. I'll send him a PM and see if I can get him to join this conversation to better describe what they did. I'm not suggesting that DeMeglio or Calace wouldn't have done something very different.

    Mick
    It wouldn't surprise me at all if the construction has changed there - for one thing fretboards are generally thicker now, as per my original sketch, they would serve the same function as the upper neck layer in the second sketch. For another, if you have the machine tools to chop up hardwood, it's way easier to just carve a single piece of hardwood to shape.... but if you're doing everything by hand and lets say the thin cut hardwoods were bought in from specialist machine shops, then building up a neck as a laminate from 1/2" softwood starts to sound a lot more attractive!

  24. #21

    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Ok, got up the courage to dissect the Calace: simple scarf joint at the same angle as the headstock, about 2” into the neck. Nothing elaborate. The joint didn’t fail, but the headstock wood nearby did. Did a little damage getting the fretboard off where it laps the soundboard, disclosing a (factory?) thin wedge under. Will have to add veneer to the neck. Another new skill. The headstock seems to be a softwood, the neck flecked like maple, but not positive about either.
    I think it’s going back together with an aluminum brace in a channel I’ll rout in from the top and embed in epoxy. Was considering titanium square section, but not necessary for weight or stiffness advantage.
    Since the headstock is only a flat board with a little taper, and the neck is just a simple tapered half cylinder, this is probably much easier in a hand tool environment that hogging out the entire shape. Can’t tell about the heel end of the neck - it’s details are covered with lining, but there’s not much flare at all, that is, no substantial neck block, so very likely one piece.
    The tuners are marked France and Pq, if that’s the brand. All brass, and set up to operate ‘backwards’.

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    Full Grown and Cussin' brunello97's Avatar
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    That DeMeglio joint doesn’t depend on the tensile strength of glue in the important area, but a plain scarf joint is 100% glue - so this is becoming interesting. About veneer adding strength, did Mick’s engineer know what the relative thicknesses of (especially old hand cut) veneers and necks are? I’m sure the veneering was largely intended for appearance, but again, it’s a matter of tensile strength parallel to grain versus cross, with the added (mostly unmeasured) properties of curly-grained veneers. If, say, the thicknesses (veneer both sides of neck) are around 1:10, the veneer could well be significant.
    We didn't put calipers on the veneer, but I can do that tomorrow. Let's just say the engineer is skeptical.

    John, I'm not sure I'm ready to buy into the "it was easier to do it this way with hand tools"....if that includes cutting an gluing up multiple parts and the triggerwork of adding the veneer. Looking at violin necks for instance, use of coping saws, shapers, etc, cutting such a profile by hand wouldn't be a overly complicated task.

    I don't have an easy answer (or any answer for that matter) as to what was behind all these design decisions. Nor would I suppose yet that cutting one piece necks in the US out of harder woods was totally dependent on a bandsaw.

    I've got a couple French mandolins from Mirecourt, one bowl and the other flatback. Both have unveneered 'hardwood' necks. I suppose they are from the '20s, though, and some of those shops were big enough to likely have power tools. But I don't know.

    To muddy my own waters...here's are two 1935 Calaces, one which appears to have a one piece neck / headstock and one which appears to have a veneered neck.

    Mick
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    Default Re: ID my grandfather's mandolin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    Ok, got up the courage to dissect the Calace: simple scarf joint at the same angle as the headstock, about 2” into the neck. Nothing elaborate. The joint didn’t fail, but the headstock wood nearby did. Did a little damage getting the fretboard off where it laps the soundboard, disclosing a (factory?) thin wedge under. Will have to add veneer to the neck. Another new skill. The headstock seems to be a softwood, the neck flecked like maple, but not positive about either.
    I think it’s going back together with an aluminum brace in a channel I’ll rout in from the top and embed in epoxy. Was considering titanium square section, but not necessary for weight or stiffness advantage.
    You could do that yes, but routing a channel and inserting a hardwood "biscuit" with your favourite wood glue would be stronger and less prone to creep. The issue with epoxy is that while it forms a very resilient joint, it's a) completely permanent, and b) prone to creep over time. So while I do put CF stiffeners in new builds with epoxy, you have to remember that the wood either side of the stiffener is doing all the structural work and the stiffener has to be mechanically locked between the bottom of the neck and the base of the fretboard as well as glued. Which is to say inserting a stiffener will make the scarf weaker not stronger, unless it's glued in with a nice crystalline wood glue like good old HHG.

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