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Thread: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

  1. #1

    Default Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Scored a coil of .080x.250 tortoise celluloid binding at the ASIA convention yard sale in Springfield, Mo. long ago. Wondering if anyone might have a trick for making it more pliable for binding without setting the shop on fire, or should I make it into shavings to load into M80's for gopher hunting? Thanks for any suggestions besides my heat gun and a one hand fire extinguisher!
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  3. #2
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    I've always been able to heat (heat gun) celluloid binding for bending with no problems and no fire extinguisher, but gopher hunting sounds like it might be more fun.

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  5. #3
    Jo Dusepo, luthier Dusepo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Bend it on the bending iron, the same as the ribs, but for a much shorter time.
    I am a luthier specialising in historical and world stringed instruments. You can see more info at my website.

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  7. #4

    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Or maybe linear fuel for model rockets. I would cut off a small piece and ignite it someplace safe just to see if it is celluloid. I put some decayed pieces of pickguard on a hotplate with an accurate surface thermometer, it was ok up above 400F, but it’s a highly variable explosive. Older can mean touchier.

  8. #5
    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    ...Older can mean touchier.
    Older can mean stiffer and more difficult to bend also. I assume that is the situation here.
    (BTW, a simple "scratch and sniff" will confirm celluloid.)

  9. #6
    Registered User jim simpson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    I've yet to find tortoise binding that is not celluloid.
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    Registered User Tavy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Hot water?

  11. #8

    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Quote Originally Posted by jim simpson View Post
    I've yet to find tortoise binding that is not celluloid.
    Quick search shows this from Musiclilly, described as ABS.. Many other listings that say celluloid are probably not.
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    I forget who I learned this from. It might have been Mario Proulx. But it could have been someone else. I have a hot plate and a cheap teflon coated frying pan. I fill it with little glass beads, like for sand blasting, from Santa Fe Jewelry. It's really small beads, like fine sand (which it basically is). I heat it up (you'll have to figure out the temperature that works on your hot plate), and the binding goes down in there for just seconds and gets really soft and bendable. The important thing is that there is no ignition of the celluloid into fire. I think it's because there's not enough oxygen. It was life changing. Heat, take to the body and hold it in place, then back to the frying pan for the next few inches.

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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Well, at least the Musiclily site says it's right handed binding. I'm sure I trust everything else on that listing.

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  17. #11
    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    I would try hot water as well. Also thinking that optometrists use hot sand or something similar for adjusting spectacle frames, so Dale's idea sounds very sensible. I don't think the newer tortoise binding from China is celluloid. It quite a different smell when you ignite a piece. It still looks right and a lot better than the Chinese ivoroid, which Eastman uses, which just looks wrong.

  18. #12

    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Quote Originally Posted by Dale Ludewig View Post
    I forget who I learned this from. It might have been Mario Proulx. But it could have been someone else. I have a hot plate and a cheap teflon coated frying pan. I fill it with little glass beads, like for sand blasting, from Santa Fe Jewelry. It's really small beads, like fine sand (which it basically is). I heat it up (you'll have to figure out the temperature that works on your hot plate), and the binding goes down in there for just seconds and gets really soft and bendable. The important thing is that there is no ignition of the celluloid into fire. I think it's because there's not enough oxygen. It was life changing. Heat, take to the body and hold it in place, then back to the frying pan for the next few inches.
    Dale, explosives contain their own oxidizers, which is why they react so fast. Oxygen from the air isn’t needed, and also why unstable ones, like antique movie film, can ignite in a closed film can, even at room temperature. Celluloid is also known as guncotton, and was once an advance in the ballistic world.

  19. #13
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard500 View Post
    Dale, explosives contain their own oxidizers, which is why they react so fast. Oxygen from the air isn’t needed, and also why unstable ones, like antique movie film, can ignite in a closed film can, even at room temperature. Celluloid is also known as guncotton, and was once an advance in the ballistic world.
    Hmm. Good point. I do know that celluloid will ignite quickly on the edge sander. And easily with a heat gun. Maybe it's just that the sand distributes the heat more evenly and there's no hot spots. And if the hot plate isn't hot enough. I think I may have to go smack my head.

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    Registered User j. condino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Yup. How many times have I ignited an old bound fingerboard when using a hot soldering iron to remove frets....
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    Mandolin tragic Graham McDonald's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    The other thing to remember is that celluloid, as it breaks down, gives off a nitric oxide which dissolves in the moisture in the air to form Nitric Acid. I saw an old Gibson A model some years ago in the Stearns Collection in Ann Arbor where the pickguard was breaking down and the resultant acid eating into the frets and the varnish. Old celluloid does become brittle as the plasticisers (camphor?) break down or evaporate, so that might be the critical decision maker if it is just going to snap when you try to shape it.

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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Quote Originally Posted by j. condino View Post
    Yup. How many times have I ignited an old bound fingerboard when using a hot soldering iron to remove frets....
    Hopefully just once
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  24. #17
    Registered User jim simpson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    I wonder if it's better to keep celluloid bound instruments stored out of their cases to lessen the likelihood of off-gassing? The worst instrument job I've had to do was removing bad tortoise binding from a mahogany Gibson. It was tough to not tear away the grain.
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  25. #18
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Quote Originally Posted by jim simpson View Post
    The worst instrument job I've had to do was removing bad tortoise binding from a mahogany Gibson. It was tough to not tear away the grain.
    If I have to remove binding and know that I'm not going to re-use it, I at least partially rout it out to minimize finish and/or wood damage.
    If I'm going to try to save the binding, see Don Teeter's book about cutting through the finish at the joint line and tools and procedure for the lifting process.

    So far, I haven't set binding on fire lifting with a soldering iron. Maybe I'm not using as much heat as some other folks do. If in doubt, a soldering stand with a temperature control can be a useful thing.

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  27. #19
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    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Don Teeter was my neighbor when I was stationed in Oklahoma City in the mid 1980s. He was quite a character and a wealth of knowledge; the first person I met who took a machinists precision and number approach to working on instruments. He also sold me a 1930 national style 3 tricone guitar for $75! I used to sit around his shop and pick tunes on that old 'burst Martin on the cover of his first book and on the guitar he made that was on the cover of the second book with the vine inlays; I passed on buying both of them. He was exceptionally nice & welcoming to a curious 20 year old.

    OKC was pretty rough and raw back in those days. I remember regularly hearing gunshots while playing gigs at the old cantina in the Paseo district and getting my car broken into before I started leaving the doors unlocked. All of the thieves knew that anybody poor enough to drive a 1966 mustang in those days didn't have anything of value inside the car. I thought one of my buddies was crazy for paying $11,000 for a three bedroom house down the block in that combat zone. That one move helped transform him onto owning about 30 now in the same hipsterfied neighborhood.

    Bill, if you need, I'll send you a few $$$ for some new binding material rather than using that old dumpster dive stuff leftover from the end of the pleistocene!
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  28. #20

    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    Alas James, my last dumpster dive was years ago at the Rigel factory a couple of days after they shut down, found nothing, but was saving my sw airlines samsonite space for the local farwood anyway:
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  30. #21

    Default Re: Reviving old tortoise celluloid binding

    200 degrees F. is the magic temperature for reshaping celluloid safely. I have heard of the hot sand method since my early days, but I have primarily used a heat gun or boiling water.
    The smell test is useful for determining the deterioration level of celluloid. A strong camphor smell is good, vinegar smell is bad. If it appears wet or greasy, throw it out. For storing, keep it well ventilated and separate sheets so they don't touch each other. Acid-free archive paper between sheets is good.
    John

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