Can an instrument be too good that it stunts your growth?

[MrGuineaPigLover]

(*Sorry for my somewhat frenzied posting in this server, I just have a lot of questions.) So for context, I'm thinking of getting either a Big Muddy flattop, a Kentucky KM 270, a Flatiron 1N, or an Eastman MD 304 (I won't be playing bluegrass). My concern, and it may be unrealistic, is that the sound and tone on these instruments is too good that I can't detect flaws in my own playing. Is that possible? I want a baseline playable instrument, that doesn't buzz every two seconds, but something also that reacts to my mistakes so I don't become complacent with my own playing.

[Bill McCall]

………My concern, and it may be unrealistic, is that the sound and tone on these instruments is too good that I can't detect flaws in my own playing. Is that possible?

In my experience, my own flaws find a way to shine through. On the other hand, my good playing sounds even better on ‘better’ instruments.

[tmsweeney]

I'm not sure such an instrument exists that would hide technical or artistic flaws with beautiful tone, and precise timing.
At any rate those mandolins mentioned will not impede your playing.
I really think only you can impede your own playing.

the instrument is part of the equation but it is you generating the tone, your mind and body, your will, your passion.
Focus on simplicity and grace.

[John Kelly]

I would say that the better the quality of an instrument the less it will interfere with your ability to play. A poorly built and poorly set up instrument is much more likely to give you problems and maybe make you play it in ways that are not helpful to you. With a good quality instrument then you can concentrate on your technique much more easily without having to think about intonation, pressure of your fretting hand, etc. Also, if the instrument is a good one with an accurate setup then if you hear "wrong" notes, muffled notes or other flaws you will know it is you and not the instrument.

[MrGuineaPigLover]

In my experience, my own flaws find a way to shine through. On the other hand, my good playing sounds even better on ‘better’ instruments.

Agreed. Is there a case where good playing could sound bad on a bad instrument? (not saying I'm a good player yet )

[MrGuineaPigLover]

I'm not sure such an instrument exists that would hide technical or artistic flaws with beautiful tone, and precise timing.
At any rate those mandolins mentioned will not impede your playing.
I really think only you can impede your own playing.

the instrument is part of the equation but it is you generating the tone, your mind and body, your will, your passion.
Focus on simplicity and grace.

That's good. I want a instrument where my flaws shine through (so I can detect them as a beginner), and it's good to know that's probably most if not all instruments. The reason I asked this question was because of my experience upgrading violins, when I upgraded from my 100 dollar to a 500 dollar, the sound was a vast improvement, even more so when I upgraded to a 1000 dollar. The tone I got was sweet, even when my technique was not the greatest, so I got complacent. Another factor I think was that I learned how to play one way (legato with a lot of vibrato) really well that I neglected other ways of playing, so it might not have been the instrument itself.

[MrGuineaPigLover]

I would say that the better the quality of an instrument the less it will interfere with your ability to play. A poorly built and poorly set up instrument is much more likely to give you problems and maybe make you play it in ways that are not helpful to you. With a good quality instrument then you can concentrate on your technique much more easily without having to think about intonation, pressure of your fretting hand, etc. Also, if the instrument is a good one with an accurate setup then if you hear "wrong" notes, muffled notes or other flaws you will know it is you and not the instrument.

This gives me a new way to think about it. It's not that the instrument is the absolute predictor of tone, but that a baseline good instrument can actually help you detect where your playing is off (and not the instruments playing).

[tmsweeney]

I would agree fully with John that a better instrument will be a better experience to learn on yes, but I would not "give up" trying to learn mandolin because you felt your instrument was inferior and incapable of generating decent tone and or musical sounds in general.

As you stated - the upgrade on the violin returned more on output for the same input on a lesser instrument.
There is something to be said for strengthening physically demanding aspects of playing by requiring more effort of the student (like running with ankle weights),
but I would also not let that dis-wade someone from playing a nicer mandolin.

Big Muddy flattop, a Kentucky KM 270, a Flatiron 1N, or an Eastman MD 304
All of these should be fine to learn on for some time, when the next "keeper" comes along reward yourself for your persistence and snag it if you can.

[Eric F.]

My concern, and it may be unrealistic, is that the sound and tone on these instruments is too good that I can't detect flaws in my own playing. Is that possible?

As the owner of a Weber Fern, I can say, emphatically, no. I wish you were right, though.

[mrmando]

All my gigs dried up after I got my first Loar ...

but maybe that was because I could no longer afford the gas to drive to those gigs.

Seriously, I think having a good instrument can make you want to practice more — so it's possible that your playing will improve more on a good instrument than on a bad one. But a wrong note is still a wrong note, whether it's played on a Casio or a Bosendorfer. I have a number of nice instruments (no Loars, though) but I can still tell a mistake when I make one.

[Simon DS]

At one time I was flat picking on a heavy 1970’s Sigma 12 String guitar that I’d found at a garage sale in Palo Alto.
High action and very jangly. But I loved it.
I was playing with full bar chords too, very athletic experience it was. Full on.

Then an engineer guy who lived in the same building offered me his jazz guitar for 2000 dollars which was very cheap, he said.
I didn’t have the money but went to try it out.
Now that was a real shock.
The instrument played itself! Really tight timing and sometimes I’d miss the string with the pick but it would play the note anyway!
(As hammer-ons)
I thought, ‘Woooow! For 2000 dollars I could sound really good’.

[mandocello8]

a Big Muddy flattop, a Kentucky KM 270, a Flatiron 1N, or an Eastman MD 304 ... the sound and tone on these instruments is too good

ahem, those are just basic working mandolins, a step up from unplayable junk with action mile high and no tone. they are not gibson or monteleone F5's with "tone too good for a beginner".

[Jim Garber]

Re: complacency— you are confusing denial of reality with truly improving in playing. The ultimate test is to record your playing and/or have people you trust and have the knowledge of your instrument give you constructive feedback. It is as easy to fool yourself on a $25,000 instrument as on a $100 one.

[MrGuineaPigLover]

ahem, those are just basic working mandolins, a step up from unplayable junk with action mile high and no tone. they are not gibson or monteleone F5's with "tone too good for a beginner".

I'll take a basic working instrument. I didn't mean to say with certainty that the tone on them was amazing. Although I have heard good things about them. Glad to know that they work for beginners.

[MrGuineaPigLover]

Re: complacency—... The ultimate test is to record your playing and/or have people you trust and have the knowledge of your instrument give you constructive feedback. It is as easy to fool yourself on a $25,000 instrument as on a $100 one.

I record myself playing quite a bit but sometimes I'm guilty of only taking the best takes. I have a few musician friends that I can ask. The problem is I don't know many mandolin players. Maybe I could ask this forum?

[mandocello8]

the tone on them was amazing

a friend just "upgraded" to an Eastman MDO304, they think "the tone is amazing"

another friend just played a gig (dance) on my Gibson A-4, everybody in the band said "the tone was amazing"

my practice mandolin is an ovation, looks ugly, sounds okey, has nice low action easy on the fingers. people come to me and say "wow, this sounded nice!"

so, better mandolin, better playing, choose both.

[mandocello8]

I record myself playing quite a bit ... [keep only] the best takes

I started the same. Eventually, the first take became the best take. Attempts to improve are not so good, loss of excitement, fatigue.

At first I recorded tunes together with the metronome clicks. On the audacity waveform view, it is easy to see where my strokes are off from metronome clicks (so practice those until they come out right).

Now, I record tunes against my own chords rhythm track, both my ear and the waveform view tell where both of me are in sync and where we are slightly off (again, work on those places).

When I record, I play the tune at least 4 times through to check for consistency and endurance. For me, 1st time through is always a bit wobbly, 2nd time through is usually the best, by the 4th repetition, there is fatigue and loss of focus.

Also I always start recording with "4 potatoes", Contra dance style.

[MrGuineaPigLover]

so, better mandolin, better playing, choose both.

Yep. So I've made up my mind for a new mando. It's not going to be top tier quality but it's going to be a vast improvement over my previous one.

[HCooke]

My CD player plays pretty flawlessly.

[GMorgan]

When playing on a fine instrument,

When I play good, I sound very, very good.

But, when I play lousy, it is obvious.

Play for fun, often, on the your best available instrument and enjoy the ride.

[Don Grieser]

No.

[Simon DS]

Would a good mandolin stunt my growth? Yes.

If someone gave me a mandolin that was worth 100,000 dollars, (sound quality, craftmanship, work of art, not celebrity) then I would keep it in a special atmosphere, humidified, toughened glass box.
I would get it out and practice at Christmas with the family.

Would I be any good at playing the mandolin?
Nope.

So don’t even think about giving me a mandolin like that!

[Mandobar]

An instrument is a tool. a good setup, a fine sounding mandolin, these all make you want to play more. which is why buying the best possible instrument that you can afford is a rule of thumb when learning. It will encourage you to practice.

[UsuallyPickin]

No it won't .... Start with the best instrument you may afford. Make sure that it has a good setup. If you are one of the few millionaires on the planet start at the top. You won't regret it/. R/

[Amanda Gregg]

10/10 for a highly original question! Never heard this one before.