BG jam: folks get annoyed if you're not playing standard licks?

[Snakum]

Going to my first jam next month and was curious if folks get annoyed when someone plays outside the 'standard' melody?

Of course, I see videos of others' interpretations of bluegrass standards. And I'm not running totally off the reservation. But as I've gotten used to mandolin I find myself doing lots of hammer-ons and pulloffs, much in the same way I play lead guitar on electric. I guess I sort of add my own thing to the melody when I start the second round.

Is this going to get me an eye roll/evil looks?

I don't know if BG folks are sticklers about that kind of thing.

[rcc56]

Depends on the folks.
If they're too critical about every little thing, you can look for other folks instead.

[Josh Levine]

Most beginner - intermediate jams people are more concerned with figuring out what they are going to do next to be worried about what others are playing. As long as your timing is good and you aren’t stepping on other people’s toes I wouldn’t worry about it. Being conscious of the melody and how you can best support the song is always a good thing to have in your mind. Go and have a good time.

[CarlM]

Two things that will not be well accepted.

1. Playing leads through other people's breaks or vocals. I used to go to a jam where one guitarist would noodle through everyone else's solos then say he did not know how to take a break when his turn came. One friend was plotting out how to strangle him with mandolin strings. She would have had lots of help hiding the body. Short answer phrases to complement a vocal are cool sometimes though.

2. You need to be able to play some form of chop rhythm on mandolin and boom chick on guitar. It does not have to be full four finger Monroe chop but something that sounds like chopping on the back beat when accompanying. Much more gets in the way of other instruments. Getting too wild on rhythm can distract from the soloist. You probably know this from your band experience but you will never go wrong if you remember 80 percent of your time is spent accompanying and you are there to support the lead. If there are a lot of people in the jam less is often more.

Creative, interesting leads are good. Just make sure you at least reference the melody so it is recognizable. A clean straight plain melody will get more positive attention than any amount of fast scales. No one should yell at you for pentatonic noodling but no one will be impressed by it either. Grisman and Sam do not just play machine gun notes. They use hammer ons., slides, pull offs, blue notes and everything else where appropriate.

[tmsweeney]

I think for Bluegrass one is always encouraged to play the "standard" licks from recordings by Monroe and others, but folk music by its very nature does not "demand or require" perfect imitations of "classic" or other performances.
So if the guitar player, bass player, banjo, fiddle, dobro, harmonica, or vocal do not play the tune exactly like the recording, I'm not sure why the mandolin player would be required to?
End tags and turn-arounds are good a place to start, and when in doubt stick to the melody.
Jams are supposed to be fun and encourage musical growth as well as social interaction, not act as disciplinary schools, but that just my humble opinion.

[jaycat]

At any jam I attend (or lead), improvising is encouraged. Those who wish to stick strictly to the melody may attend old-time jams.

[UsuallyPickin]

Well .... Playing with ... kind of sets the stage ... versus playing over ... always support the song or tune ... good timing, being in tune, don't step on the vocals and be aware of the spirit of what you are playing and not getting away from the feel of what is being played. And yes, it is possible to encounter a jam where you don't feel welcome. Oh well .... move along to another place to play. It is always a gamble when you go to a jam. Honestly most folks just want to play. Lastly take a recorder so you can remember what was played. It will expand your collections of songs. Play on! R/

[Ky Slim]

You'll probably get a feel pretty quickly about the jam. Eye rolls and evil looks are not the end of the world. As long as your not one of the "that guy" types that just noodles everywhere all the time you'll be fine. As a newcomer to the jam (and depending on the jam) you may not "get the nod" to take a break on every single song. So when/if you do get the nod it'll be up to you how much you reign things in or to stretch out. Man I've crashed and burned sooooooo many times trying to take breaks that I've learned to a) stay in my lane and b) don't over think it. You should just be excited to go to the jam and have fun with it. Good Luck!

[Snakum]

Oh ... guess I should ask here ...

Since I'm learning the same tunes on upright and mandolin, is it appropriate to take both the first time?

Since they rarely have a bass player I thought I could play bass on the songs I don't know well using charts. But ask to move to mandolin on the ones I have down on that instrument. Is this left field?

I'm autistic, so I over-think everything.

[Simon DS]

If you arrive with a bass and someone hadn’t planned already to play then they’ll probably be very happy and especially if you show you’re willing to switch to mandolin if that’s what fits in.
One issue though may be that they decide that you’re their bass player (!)

[Snakum]

I've had that happen both ways on bar band fill-in gigs. Came in playing bass but took a few songs on lead guitar and got put on six string perm like. And I've come in on lead but someone else was better and got asked to switch to bass. I usually just roll with it.

My hands and fingers are so busted up it's been humbling trying to get my lead chops back and trying to play mandolin. Had a bad bike wreck two Summers ago and had to stop playing for a year.

[JiminRussia]

For me it’s a bit different from what I read in the replies. I’m in the “hold my guitar and finger some chords and watch and listen to what the real guitar players are doing” category. I won’t go into the long boring story of how I took a twenty-five year hiatus from bluegrass music, but I did, and when I decided to get back into it, lo and behold I was an old guy that was trying to teach himself how to play the guitar, an instrument that he has never played. Back in the day I played banjo and mandolin. Now two years after that fateful decision I have made some progress and I want to learn to play with other people. My problem is that I have never played guitar with other people. I can play a reasonable lead or break on somewhere between 14 and 20 songs, but I don’ t have a clue as to how to back up someone else on any song. For now, I have decided to listen to some backing tracks and try to learn from them. So far progress on that front has been disappointing.

[Bill McCall]

Not interested at all in the ‘standard’ licks. If I wanted repetition I’d go to an OT jam.

Ain’t going to happen.

Ymmv.

[Marcus CA]

I agree with Bill. I stay away from the old-timey and Celtic jams for exactly that reason.

I also think that Carl's three points are spot-on. Don't mess up what other people are doing, and unless you're at a jamgrass jam, don't get too bizarre. I think that in a break at a bluegrass jam, simplicity and bluesiness are generally tolerated more than jazziness.

[Simon DS]

It really depends on a lot of different, variable and negotiable factors.
It’s a social activity too, the more time you take to get to know the people and the more you talk to them then the more they will want to accommodate your specific needs.
-unless of course you’re dealing with sociopaths!

If you can play three popular tunes at moderate tempo and solid rhythm then you’re set.

[Bob Buckingham]

I try to play the melody with a flair. Get too far away from the melody then folks may look at you oddly. Good taste is an asset.

[bigskygirl]

The jam I go to prefers mostly melody as do I. There’s a bit of leeway in fiddle tunes but it’s never wrong to stay close to melody and add your own flair. Canned licks and rapid fire notes are generally not pleasing to a listener, use space to your advantage.

[Woolybug25]

You'll find out pretty quick the vibe of the jam. Sit back and chop while watching others take their breaks. Most that I have been to have been pretty accepting of everyone's musical ideas, experience, etc. If the jam you go to isn't that way, then just find a different jam. You'll find a group you like eventually. Most of all... have fun!

[MontanaMatt]

My advice is as follows
I doubt you’ll get a break from bass…unless there are other bass pickers hiding in the weeds, if that’s the case, “forget” to bring the bass one week out of three.
As for departure from the standard solo line, go wild, get outside the comfort zone, and hit the chord changes and ending, and dare them to complain.

If it feels weird, return to normal settings for a while

Confidence sounds Awesome in a solo!

[Snakum]

I've found that just like lead guitar in cover bands, I tend towards not being a note-for-note guy. I'm lazy. But I've gotten comfortable enough with a few songs to add my own thang. I guess I'll find out soon where I'm at with it. I've connected with a couple guys here who are local and hope to have enough songs down to jam soon. Also reconnected with the singer from one of my bands years ago who is into bluegrass. Looking forward to playing with other folks.

[JeffD]

So certain genres are improvisation friendly and others are not. No disrespect to either. Old time and Celtic are of the latter variety. They love and appreciate a good melody, and at most its reverential decoration. Or say classical, where playing what the composer intends is the norm. Bluegrass, jazz, blues are of the former variety, and taking an improvisational break is encouraged and applauded. No problem.

I think one important distinction between the two "camps" that one group of musicians love the tune and want you to hear it, the other group wants you to hear their playing. Again both are a valid way to be. Both have their prodigies and their worshipers.

There are only problems when one is butting up the norms of one genre with the norms of another. Kind of like going to France and complaining how little they appreciated your English.

One can enjoy and appreciate both Andres Segovia and Frank Zappa.


I think the skills to create interesting and innovative breaks and improvisations should go hand in hand with the skill to discern what and how much is appropriate. the two skills develop together, and probably best by playing with others. That and getting it wrong a few times.



My own tastes in improvisation are that a break sounds best when it is relevant to the tune, copies or enhances the natural drama of the tune. It pays respect to the original tune, and drives or maybe reinterprets the tune or responds in a new way to the tune's natural energy. I personally don't care as much for improvisations that, however athletic, would fit in any tune of the same key. One can tell a well practiced improvisation in G being stuffed into a G tune, whether it fits with the tune or not. Its as if to say, I am tired of the melody and want you to hear me play this.

IMO YMMV

[Chuck Leyda]

I think of jams a lot like pick up basketball. Your game is your passport. If it's valid you'll be fine. When I was one of the better players, I might bring the ball up, look for my own shot. When the better players showed up, it was time to set picks and crash the glass for rebounds.

Same with a jam. If you're one of the more experienced players, let your freak flag fly (RIP Mr Crosby). If you're in above your ability play it close to the melody.

I've been playing for 40 years and lucky enough to make some money playing. I still get nervous around jams. The interwebz puts the best and brightest in our face each day and while that's great it gives me a lot of imposter syndrome. But it turns out that Thile, Andy Irvine, and John Doyle didn't show up at the jam. Just s few imperfect players that enjoy playing music. They won't mind a few hammer ons or one of my infamous blown dismounts (I play myself into a corner too often when improvising).

I would say, have fun and avoid jams that come with negativity.

[Simon DS]

Look at the positives, if you haven’t been playing that long then it can be really helpful to go to jams where they play strictly melody with four or five times through and no ‘individuals’.
Like that you can get a solid grounding of each genre before branching out to let it rip.
It can be good to have a repertoire where you know how a session plays a tune in one city compared to somewhere else.
And good to understand the differing parts and the ‘essence’ of each tune.

[Mandobart]

Based on my regionally limited PNW experience - you don't even take leads in Old Time jams of course. In bluegrass jams in my town, where (at 59) I might be one of the youngest players there, it's best to stick fairly close to the tune. At a jam that I've attended for many years and am known, I'll take more liberties. A couple licks from "Jessica" fit nicely into "Angeline the Baker", for example.

At festivals, particularly near the coast, urban areas or anywhere that great, enthusiastic younger people attend (the future of bluegrass, newgrass, Americana) there is a lot more latitude to improvise.

I would suggest, however:

1. Don't be that guy who tries to push their own original songs or chord-y interpretation of a song. That's a jambuster.

2. Don't be the guy insisting on unknown or obscure tunes involving unexpected chords or key changes, UNLESS the group is up for it AND you're willing to slowly teach it to them. Goes without saying you've got to know it cold. Otherwise, it's a jambuster.

3. ONLY take a lead when it's your turn. Never lead or noodle over the singer or other players.

4. Don't insist on playing a well-known standard in a different key than it's normally played in. An exception could be if you're a phenomenal singer and you can knock it out of the park in a different key. But if you insist on some 4-flat horn key you may not be asked back no matter how well you can sing or play.

[Tom Haywood]

I think playing standard licks is not at the top of the list. The most important thing, imo, is to play the correct rhythm. A solid rhythm guitar player is essential to bluegrass. So is a bass player who keeps it simple and on the 1 and 3 beat bluegrass rhythm. If you show up with the bass and do that, you may get very little chance to play mandolin after that. The mandolin chop is the other part of the bass rhythm (the 2 and 4 beats), so it is way more important than licks. Of course, the mandolin player will be expected to take a break. Unlike playing covers of songs from records, the break is mostly improvised from the melody. One or two or three bluegrass licks thrown in appropriately will get attention. Ricky Skaggs plays a lot of licks with pull offs and hammer ons, so you're in good company. There is an old quote somewhere that says if you spend a lot of time listening to records of the first generation bluegrass players, the correct sound will show up in your playing.

I recommend showing up at a first jam session with a mandolin and state an intention to hang in the back and chop quietly. Get a feel for the rhythm played by that group. Whenever (if) you feel confident to play a break, step into the circle and wait your turn. Play something that sounds a lot like the melody. A little slide from the flat 3rd to the 3rd works wonders.