mandolin etiquette at Old Time sessions?

[Bill McCall]

So---we now have OT snobs?............

I don't think that's new or limited to OT.

[tiltman]

I don't think that's new or limited to OT.

Isn't that the truth...

Kirk

[foldedpath]

I don't think that's new or limited to OT.

It's not, but it isn't always wrong. Most "genre jams" like OldTime, Bluegrass, Blues, Jazz, Irish trad etc. have either official or unspoken guide rails to protect the genre they've chosen to play, so it doesn't just turn into a free-for-all where anything goes.

There are of course "anything goes" acoustic jams too, but some other jams pull the guard rails in a bit tighter to prevent repertoire drift, or takeover by outsiders. For example, some of the more "pure drop" Irish trad sessions have been forced to be that way to avoid being taken over by the inevitable Guitar Army of folksingers in some areas.

In my view, people who have known each other for years and like to play in a certain way, shouldn't be criticized by newcomers for wanting to hold to a certain standard. Whether it's repertoire, "allowed" instruments, preferred tempos, or whatever. If the jam doesn't appeal to you, look for another one.

P.S. if I sound a little cranky it's because I've had to be the "session cop" on one or two occasions. Like having to gently dissuade the guy who wandered into a mixed Irish/Scottish trad session with a gigantic banjo bass and wanted to hammer on the I and V for every tune.

[Jim Garber]

Frankly, I never noticed many problems with mandolins in our old time jams. First of all if any show up they are in the minority, certainly overshadowed primarily by fiddles and then by banjos and guitars. Even if they are chopping I doubt I hear them. And of the players I know, they are friends and generally know how these jams run anyway.

[Simon DS]

It's not, but it isn't always wrong. Most "genre jams" like OldTime, Bluegrass, Blues, Jazz, Irish trad etc. have either official or unspoken guide rails to protect the genre they've chosen to play, so it doesn't just turn into a free-for-all where anything goes.

There are of course "anything goes" acoustic jams too, but some other jams pull the guard rails in a bit tighter to prevent repertoire drift, or takeover by outsiders. For example, some of the more "pure drop" Irish trad sessions have been forced to be that way to avoid being taken over by the inevitable Guitar Army of folksingers in some areas.

In my view, people who have known each other for years and like to play in a certain way, shouldn't be criticized by newcomers for wanting to hold to a certain standard. Whether it's repertoire, "allowed" instruments, preferred tempos, or whatever. If the jam doesn't appeal to you, look for another one.

P.S. if I sound a little cranky it's because I've had to be the "session cop" on one or two occasions. Like having to gently dissuade the guy who wandered into a mixed Irish/Scottish trad session with a gigantic banjo bass and wanted to hammer on the I and V for every tune.

I agree with this, standards and the tradition, and one thing I did notice with some sessions in the UK and France was the amount of waste.
I mean productivity. In business there can be a lot of waste at an economic level, losses. In sessions there can be a lot of loss at a social level.
Someone says the wrong thing at the wrong time, and someone else stops playing music for maybe two years, stops producing socially.

I used to go to ukulele session and there were so many people who either had the wrong instrument for the session, or there was something that could have been negotiated. And then they left, never to be seen again! I often thought that it would be good to set up another session on a different Night that doesn't compete and take down all the phone numbers of the people who were leaving. Slow sessions too.

[Eric Platt]

Cary's post (and article) are highly recommended. There are definitely OT snobs. I know a few fiddlers who will not play with the local old time jam crowd because they do not meet the quality of play the person likes. As well as the tune choice. Or even old-time styles. It's sometimes difficult to get an Appalachian player to appreciate the Midwest styles (especially Missouri Valley and "Missouri Rules."

Besides Carl Jones, would recommend listening to Kim and Jim Lansford. Jim was a great mandolin player as well as a steller guitarist. Also listen to the Buckhannon Brothers for another take on old time.

Will admit to not playing much old-time anymore. Got pulled in by Nordic music then Quebec and have spent too much time working on those to be of help. However, when I do go to old-time jams, I try not to chop too much and just flow with the music. Either following the banjo or guitar if playing chords.

[Ranald]

It's not, but it isn't always wrong. Most "genre jams" like OldTime, Bluegrass, Blues, Jazz, Irish trad etc. have either official or unspoken guide rails to protect the genre they've chosen to play, so it doesn't just turn into a free-for-all where anything goes.

The timing of this discussion is interesting. I'm dealing with the same issue in regard to a traditional singing group with fairly strict but often unenforced rules about material and method of singing (e.g., songs should be traditional or folk, passed down from person to person, and song sheets are only to be used as an aid when a song is new to you, then you may refer to it when you're stuck). Lately, we've been getting songs from musicals and tv shows, people staring into cellphones as they sing, and many coming unprepared. We like to be a bit loose about these matters. For instance, if one of our core group sings a pop song once in a blue moon, or if a nervous person or elderly soul uses a song sheet, we don't gripe. But "give'em an inch and they take a yard." Some folks even take a schoolboy's delight in flaunting a supposed authority figure, giggling and boasting about how they didn't follow the rules. This is also true of instrumental sessions I've attended. Our song group's host and I were discussing a crackdown, something he doesn't like to do but feels pressed to.

"In my view, people who have known each other for years and like to play in a certain way, shouldn't be criticized by newcomers for wanting to hold to a certain standard. Whether it's repertoire, "allowed" instruments, preferred tempos, or whatever. If the jam doesn't appeal to you, look for another one."

Yeah, but it takes work to arrange a setting, gather people together, and host a group. It's much easier to sabotage a group already in existence. I accept that here's always a certain amount of cultural politics creating some tension at music sessions. However, you can vote with your feet if you don't like the customs of the core group. Fifty people can turn away, but if a group of five or six regulars is committed to the session's ideals, great. If less than that turn up, the host will realize that either his interest is too obscure or he's doing something wrong. (Has anyone started a session in which everyone plays "Wagon Wheel" for two hours? That might be popular.)

[pops1]

Jim Lansford was not only a great mandolin player, and guitar player, he was also a great fiddle player. He had the limpest wrist I have ever seen. We joked about it and he said he didn't know how it got that way. It was sure fun to watch. Jim left us way too soon.

At our OT jams some of the guitar players and fiddle players like to sit by me playing mandolin. I have played square dances with solo mandolin, it works well with the tunes. I seldom play fiddle for a long time now, we have more than enough fiddle players. It's nice here, if we have a party or dance we have at least 3-5 callers and plenty of musicians. No one gets down on beginners, we have all been there at one time. I learned most of the tunes I know at jams over the last few decades.

[Bill McCall]

It's not, but it isn't always wrong. Most "genre jams" like OldTime, Bluegrass, Blues, Jazz, Irish trad etc. have either official or unspoken guide rails to protect the genre they've chosen to play, so it doesn't just turn into a free-for-all where anything goes.

There are of course "anything goes" acoustic jams too, but some other jams pull the guard rails in a bit tighter to prevent repertoire drift, or takeover by outsiders. For example, some of the more "pure drop" Irish trad sessions have been forced to be that way to avoid being taken over by the inevitable Guitar Army of folksingers in some areas.

In my view, people who have known each other for years and like to play in a certain way, shouldn't be criticized by newcomers for wanting to hold to a certain standard. Whether it's repertoire, "allowed" instruments, preferred tempos, or whatever. If the jam doesn't appeal to you, look for another one.

P.S. if I sound a little cranky it's because I've had to be the "session cop" on one or two occasions. Like having to gently dissuade the guy who wandered into a mixed Irish/Scottish trad session with a gigantic banjo bass and wanted to hammer on the I and V for every tune.

You can accomplish all that without being snobby. Or not, it’s a choice.

[Simon DS]

Maybe, like the cops in the session, they are forced into the role by the dynamics of social interaction?
They don’t necessarily want to be like that, they just have precise objectives.
-of course it would be nice if they didn’t behave in ways that rile the others further.

[newton]

Old-Time and bluegrass jams are rarely ruined by mandolins. 95% of the time the problem is low-effort guitar strummers who don't seek to understand the genre the jam is dedicated to.

[tiltman]

...who don't seek to understand the genre the jam is dedicated to.

And I think that is the key. State up front that this is the situation. Folks can choose to participate or not.

...official or unspoken guide rails to protect the genre they've chosen to play, so it doesn't just turn into a free-for-all where anything goes

Or, god forbid, "world music"...

Again, as long as it is communicated clearly, and respectfully, that this is the music that we are choosing to play...folks can choose to participate or not.
Even done as nicely as possible - some people may still react badly. That is their choice.

Kirk

[newton]

And I think that is the key. State up front that this is the situation. Folks can choose to participate or not.

I think, despite the online talk about bluegrass and old time "police," most people are pretty non-confrontational. You would think that if you went to a jam with a bunch of fiddles and open-back banjos, playing instrumental tunes, and staying in the same key for a while to accommodate banjo retuning, you would know it's not the place to strum and sing "Margaritaville," but people can be pretty oblivious.

[Bacfire]

Surprising that few mention Compton in these OT mandolin threads. He plays a lot of OT around Nashville and set something of a mold for mando rhythm during his time with the Hartford String Band.
‘Course, getting that Compton Sound is no easy feat.

[Simon DS]

…you would know it's not the place to strum and sing "Margaritaville," but people can be pretty oblivious…

I loooove that song, does anyone here have the TAB?
See, you get two or three nice, friendly, enthusiastic people who want to sing that over your OldTime jam - personally I’d find it difficult to resist.


https://youtu.be/67J_sUz7cdY

[Simon DS]

Surprising that few mention Compton in these OT mandolin threads. He plays a lot of OT around Nashville and set something of a mold for mando rhythm during his time with the Hartford String Band.
‘Course, getting that Compton Sound is no easy feat.

Tell me about it! Compton’s rhythm is great.
I’ve had the whole day learning a different and slightly obscure rhythm (wont say which one) and I ended up playing a reel as a very rubatoed Slow Air.

[newton]

I loooove that song, does anyone here have the TAB?
See, you get two or three nice, friendly, enthusiastic people who want to sing that over your OldTime jam - personally I’d find it difficult to resist.


https://youtu.be/67J_sUz7cdY

Old time jam etiquette requires you to do it when the banjos are in D tuning

[Bacfire]

Here's an OT vs BG discussion session from Augusta. Compton talking about OT mando at 29:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQz1trMf3HU

[lowtone2]

This is not a typical old time session tune, but check John Reischman’s approach to playing rhythm on it. If you don’t have too many guitars playing rhythm this can work i think.

[JeffD]

Every so often one really can reach a feeling of blissful euphoria, something that for me never happens in bluegrass.

I would never say never, but I would say, yup.

[JeffD]

I ran a coffeehouse years ago, that featured two healthy self sustaining jam sessions. Tuesday night was old time. Thursday night was bluegrass. Very few switch hitters. Lots of fun for everyone. Each side had its snobs, of course, we all know that what we do is what is right and what we like is what should be liked.

[Simon DS]

This is not a typical old time session tune, but check John Reischman’s approach to playing rhythm on it. If you don’t have too many guitars playing rhythm this can work i think.

Now there’s a tune!
And even with the guitar here (which is really nice too) you can hear the difference.
Like the difference between a good Strathspey and something that’s more DUDDUD double jig, and then DUDUDU, what I’d call a classical jig.

[milli857]

Now there’s a tune!
And even with the guitar here (which is really nice too) you can hear the difference.
Like the difference between a good Strathspey and something that’s more DUDDUD double jig, and then DUDUDU, what I’d call a classical jig.

We jam that tune a lot at the weekly bluegrass jam I go to, it’s one of my favorites. I highly recommend learning some Reischman tunes, they’re real fun.

[musicofanatic]

I wasn't previously entirely conscious of it till hearing Reischman above, but I recognize that I do a lot of that "ringy, stringy", double-string sort of backup playing, totally appropriate in old-timey playing. I play mandolin with all types of players in all types of music, and I think that sort of approach works pretty universally (okay, not bluegrass, necessarily). Might not work so well with a heavy-handed approach, tho...

Addressing the topic of session "etiquette", as it was put by the author of this post, I believe what works in life translates to what works in music. Cognizance. Civility. Sensitivity. Not only to other players, but in service to the music. I do not believe an anything-goes, kitchen sink approach particularly serves the music...seems like the homogenization of everydamnthing is so pervasive, usually perpetrated with selfish, insensitive motivation. "Keepin' it real" is an overused buzz phrase, but in many cases, good advice. Reckon I'm a snob to some...

[JeffD]

Cognizance. Civility. Sensitivity. Not only to other players, but in service to the music. I do not believe an anything-goes, kitchen sink approach particularly serves the music...seems like the homogenization of everydamnthing is so pervasive, usually perpetrated with selfish, insensitive motivation. "Keepin' it real" is an overused buzz phrase, but in many cases, good advice. ..

I agree. Cognizance is, reality, listening and understanding. Understanding that there are many types of jam sessions, with many different things are appropriate at different times, and by just listening one can sort it out. Be the bunny.

Rather than trying to cobble to gether a single set of rules for all music, that denies stylistic and regional differences, that are the heart and soul of things.