musings re. bass at jams, electricity, and carved vs. flat tops

[CeeCee_C]

Hey all -

I hope this doesn't end up causing as much acrimony as my question about capos,

I haven't been to more than a few jams, mostly because (a) there are only two in the immediate area and (2) they both only meet once a month.

But I've been thinking about the bass, mostly because the Spousal Unit plays the electric bass.

My understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that jam organizers would tend to prefer no bass at all than allow someone to play electric bass. Of course, this is, no doubt, a gross over-generalization.

I do know that if I played the double bass, I'd think twice before I dragged it to a jam session, particularly if I'd never played with that group before. It's got to be a big deal totin' one of those things around (then again, I'm really little).

Anyway, I went out looking for an acoustic bass to give the SU for this coming Christmas.

I went to various shops and played a bunch of 'em and they all shared two characteristics:

First, none of them seemed loud enough to be heard at a jam session (particularly if there's more than one banjo player...just kiddin' banjo lovers)

Second, each and every one of them was a flat top instrument.

Wouldn't a carved top acoustic bass guitar be louder than a flat top instrument, all other things being equal?

The only archtop bass guitars I found online were extremely high end custom builds, and even so, I think I only found two builders making them.

Is there simply no market for a guitar style archtop acoustic bass? If there is, why didn't Google find more of them.

Alternately, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. That doesn't stop me from asking why...

Thanks for your patience. We now return you to your regular programming.

[nickster60]

I asked this question and the concesous was they weren't great. I played a few and they are not great.

[JeffD]

I have never seen an acoustic bass guitar at a jam. Not that I would have any feelings about it either way, I would in fact be fine with it. I just haven't seen many acoustic bass guitars at all, and the one's I have seen were in concerts and such.

I think an electric bass, or electric guitar, or even an electric mandolin for that matter, would not be encouraged at a jam.

I know of a couple of jam venues where there is a piano and a string bass there in the room for anyone who comes in to play. I have a piano (and I don't play piano) for this very reason, and I have considered getting a dog house bass as well, just to have on hand for those so inclined.

[bassthumper]

withjust 1 or 2 folks informal my martin b-1 does fine

that said in a jam it does'nt push enough air to be heard

i've got a fine 2006 engelhart maestro upright for sale, sounds great strung with thomastiks....needs a bridge/setup but comes with new in box schertler pu/preamp that multiple sclerosis won't let me play any more...if you were closer my medical power of atty could meet ya'll to sample both basses....

[OldSausage]

That's why, despite the disadvantages, most people take a double bass to jams anyway. An acoustic guitar bass is useless, and if you have to take an amp, you may as well have brought a double bass. Plus, they sound wonderful.

[Beanzy]

It's not the real deal, but I was impressed with the sound and 'pub portability' of one of these Kala fretless


http://www.gak.co.uk/en/kala-solid-m...ukulele/103034

plugged into one of these.

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/roland-bass-micro-cube-rx/18487

It had enough welly for a jam but wasn't going to do that electric bass thing of being too dominant due to the amp.
Being battery powered it also meant she just came in stuck the amp under her bar stool and played along shoulder-to shoulder with the rest of us, with no fiddle-fartin' about looking for sockets or lugging in huge kit with lots of 'excuse me'. If I ever went back to doing bass in jams then it's probably what I'd do.

[DataNick]

Well out here in SoCal, if it's a last resort, a electric bass played by one of us who knows how to keep it in bluegrass style with appropriate volume is better to us than no bottom end at all(a-la Jim & Jesse)...we do try to avoid that occurrence however. Those uke basses work pretty well too!

[DataNick]

These guys do pretty well with the uke bass

[Mike Bunting]

It's not the real deal, but I was impressed with the sound and 'pub portability' of one of these Kala fretless


http://www.gak.co.uk/en/kala-solid-m...ukulele/103034

plugged into one of these.

http://www.gak.co.uk/en/roland-bass-micro-cube-rx/18487

It had enough welly for a jam but wasn't going to do that electric bass thing of being too dominant due to the amp.
Being battery powered it also meant she just came in stuck the amp under her bar stool and played along shoulder-to shoulder with the rest of us, with no fiddle-fartin' about looking for sockets or lugging in huge kit with lots of 'excuse me'. If I ever went back to doing bass in jams then it's probably what I'd do.

I've been impressed with their sound, the most acoustic sounding electrified bass I've ever heard. I like them.

[SincereCorgi]

Wouldn't a carved top acoustic bass guitar be louder than a flat top instrument, all other things being equal?

The only archtop bass guitars I found online were extremely high end custom builds, and even so, I think I only found two builders making them.

Is there simply no market for a guitar style archtop acoustic bass?

There might be one, but it's super-niche. Guitar-type acoustic basses are usually quiet, in my experience, and most of the commercial production specimens have a pickup because they know it. The people who buy them, in my experience, are electric bass players who want to go camping.

One thing I've seen that works okay, though, is people who put a fretless bass neck and strings on a Mexican guitarron. The body is big enough to generate a pretty decent volume, and it's more portable than a bass.

[Billbass1]

If your going to use ANY un-amplified acoustic bass guitar,
Here are two things that will produce the needed volume.

1. Play with a hard pick and not with fingers or thumb .
2. Use round wound strings on the bass

Of course the intensity of the attack will also influence the volume.
Also , using a pick and round wound strings is going to produce a more
treble sounding tone instead of a deep soft bass.
It's a trade off and compromise .
Anyway , I'm sure the purest devotees will still find fault with this solution.

[nickster60]

Most jams I have been to there is always a stand bass present and various players seem to share it. I have also seen a electric fret less bass at a jam in South Carolina.

[Polecat]

I've been impressed with their sound, the most acoustic sounding electrified bass I've ever heard. I like them.

Me too, our last bass player bought one and used it onstage quite a lot, here's a video:



That said, our current bassist plays a double bass, which to my ears sounds even better, and works in an acoustic context too. I don't believe you can get tone and volume in the bass range acoustically without the large wooden diaphragm of a double bass unless you resort to some electronic jiggery-pokery. I don't have an issue with mixing acoustic and electric instruments at a jam, so long as the "electricians" excercise restraint, but the fact that amplifiers are generally designed to operate at greater volume levels than acoustic instruments tends to make difficulties inevitable.

[nickster60]

You like always run into some Acoustic-Snobery from some in the Anti-Electric but banjos are Ok corner.

[UsuallyPickin]

Any bass is better than no bass. No bass is better than one that is amplified too loud. Flat tops need amplification in a more than three folks jam. Even a 3/4 size stand up is a pain in the back to cart around. The are attachable wheeled carts and cases with wheels available now. A cheer is heard from the bass section. YAY! The thing about playing bass is that only one is needed. Showing up at a jam with a standup when there is already a bass player there is " coals to Newcastle". R/

[multidon]

The thing here, of course, is what KIND of jam are we talking about? By the responses so far the assumption is being made, as usual, that we are talking bluegrass. And bluegrass aficionados often tend to be ultra conservative in the bass thing.

What many forget is the upright bass was predominant before the 1950's simply because there was no better alternative. The Fender P bass was a real game changer.

My wife is a bass player, and we are both active in what might be called loosely defined folk genres, including Celtic and Old Time styles. She also has faced the question of how best to emulate the upright bass sound. Here is what we found in our journey:

1. We both played just about every bass guitar out there including the Martin. The only one we found that had decent volume without amplification was the Breedlove. So we bought it. It has enough acoustic volume to be heard in a small group of up to seven or eight players. Beyond that it would still have to be amplified. We later played a used Tacoma Thunderchief that was also impressive in volume but it had a much thicker body.and was uncomfortable to hold. I understand that there are many fans of the first acoustic bass guitar, the Earthwood, but it suffered the same problems inherent with a too thick body.

2. Her Carvin AC40 bass is supposedly acoustic electric but in truth it must be amplified. However, when strung with nylon tape wound strings, it sounds very upright like.

3. We too went the Uke bass route for some things. The extremely short scale takes a great deal of getting used to for an experienced bass player, as do the rubbery strings. We found that switching the stock Factory strings with Aquila Thunderguts resulted in better feel, tuning stability, and intonation. Intonation can be an issue with the uke bass due to the very short scale. Action relief and open tuning must be spot on perfect or else intonation faults are magnified. But the tone, as pointed out above, is quite good.

In short, unless you are in an ultra conservative jam, there should be at least some toleration of electric bass. Portability and convenience is the reason they were invented after all.

One more footnote. I saw a group on tv some time ago and the bass player had what I believe was a fractional sized cello, maybe 1/2 or 3/4 size, strung like a bass and he played it in basically a guitar position. It was amplified but I thought the sound quality had a very significant acoustic element to it. I wondered if anyone else had heard of that? Now there's a way of saving transport space while still preserving acoustic sound!

[Ryk Loske]

Cee Cee,

I don't know if it's in your budget .. but Pete Langdell's .. (Rigel) ... ABG or Acoustic Bass Guitar would be just the ticket. They look a little weird but are a delight to play and have plenty of sound.

Dream Guitars (NFI) is having a sale on New Islander - Kanilea uke basses which i like better than the Kalas.

Have fun Elfing,

Ryk

[nickster60]

Just my opinion, I really feel the problem with electric basses at jams is the electric players themselves. The bluegrass bass style is pretty subdued compared to other styles of bass play. If you show up with a electric bass you are most likely from another style of music and are looking to broaden your musical horizons.Rock,Jazz and Funk have little to do with bluegrass. If you can stay in the pocket you can fit in, but the bluegrass pocket is pretty small and not very loud.

[spufman]

I am an electric bass player who plays mandolin. I have a Tacoma acoustic which is very nice and relatively loud for an ABG. But if I'm doing a jam along the lines of what you describe, I'd bring my electric fretless and try to emulate an in-context upright timbre. If I got snubbed I'd hope it was because my intonation was bad, not because I brought an electric bass along! A gigbag and small amp is much easier to transport than would be an upright.

NFI, but I see there's a Tacoma on the Hartford craigslist. Your hubby would like this, I'm sure: http://hartford.craigslist.org/msg/4734683017.html

[GTison]

Bluegrass has changed through the years. Personally I like the acoustic upright bass fiddle sound. When played correctly with some oomph it is a great counterpoint to play against. The electric bass can play that way too but it is a technique that most electric players just don't bother doing ( or something). I've been in parking lot jams with electric basses. They are Ok.

A friend of mine used to take a Mexican Guitarron Bass around with him to jams and play it. It worked for bluegrass jamming and sounded pretty good. I read they are hard to play. IDK.
After band practice were discussing the upright bass and that almost all pro bluegrass bands had them now. But back in the 70s and 80s several traditional bands had the electric bass. And by that I mean like a Fender Jazz bass or something. The Osborne Bros. , Jim & Jessie, Boys from Indiana, Bluegrass Cardinals, Doyle Lawson & quicksilver, Jimmy Martin, and others I can't think of. The Osbornes switched back sometime in the 90s after Jessie Brock left. Other bands Gradually switched back as well or dissolved. I see no bluegrass sin in it. The style has just changed or maybe I just haven't noticed.

[multidon]

By the way the article on how to convert a cello to a mini bass is on www.dennishavlena.com. I do not know how to do a direct link with the tablet.

Basically he uses Fender flat wound electric bass strings, enlarging the slots in the nut and bridge appropriately. He likes the results. If I found a junker student cello cheap I would like to try it!

[JH Murray]

Has anyone ever tried putting ubass strings on a tenor banjo? I wonder if that would be enough volume for an acoustic jam?

[Rush Burkhardt]

Prologue: A bluegrasser since the 50's, through the purist (upright, double bass) to the newgrass (Fender, etc.) to the present (play what you brung.) The reason I'm a mandolinist is because, when given the choice, schlepping a double bass was onerous compared to the mandolin.

Opinions:
1. Double bass...best for any BG jam; still awkward to haul!
2. Electric bass (ie. Fender, etc.)... a) hard to predict acceptability; b) sound often doesn't integrate well.
3. Acoustic bass guitar...seems like a good choice; without amplification they just don't project in a band setting.
4. Bass ukelele...when properly amplified, is virtually indistinguishable from the double bass. (I play frequently in a jam at Randy Wood's and one of our MC luthier regulars (Barry Kratzer) plays a Kala U-bass, and it [and his playing] are spot on! From the other room one can't tell it's not an upright!)

If I had the choice to make, I'd give the U-bass (Kala; available w/wo frets) a choice!
Good luck, CeCe!

[JeffD]

Just my opinion, I really feel the problem with electric basses at jams is the electric players themselves. The bluegrass bass style is pretty subdued compared to other styles of bass play.....Rock,Jazz and Funk have little to do with bluegrass....

You have an excellent point. True enough in old time as well. In fact any genre of music where a bass player comes and plays, loudly, out of a different genre - there will be problems.

Its not the fault of bluegrass, its the fault of folks that are bass players first and musicians second.

[JeffD]

I think that electric instruments mixed in with acoustic instruments that are not miked can be problematic. I don't think its a anti-electric prejudice, its more of a "this is what we came here to do, not that".

I have direct experience, however, of guitarists and bass guitarists, who brought small amps along to our jam and were subtle enough players and good enough listeners that it worked out well, and even helped.