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Thread: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

  1. #26

    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    My band uses an accordion, because we have a great player and no fiddle. He can fill a lot of the space otherwise filled by the fiddle. Other than the major advantage of playing with a good friend and wonderful person, it makes us a little different. Some think that's good, YMMV.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    I thought I heard somewhere that early on Monroe had an accordion in some formation of a group. Accordion was (and still is) quite a common instrument to be found in households in the the time period when Monroe was starting out.
    go to any Celtic music jams and accordions can easily outnumber most other instruments except for whistle perhaps.
    While the classic fiddle mandolin banjo guitar and bass ensemble retains a certain magic about it, there are enough examples of great Blue Grass music that deviates from the classic ensemble.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    I thought I heard somewhere that early on Monroe had an accordion in some formation of a group. Accordion was (and still is) quite a common instrument to be found in households in the the time period when Monroe was starting out.
    go to any Celtic music jams and accordions can easily outnumber most other instruments except for whistle perhaps.
    While the classic fiddle mandolin banjo guitar and bass ensemble retains a certain magic about it, there are enough examples of great Blue Grass music that deviates from the classic ensemble.
    I wish that I old find that old photo of a band that Bill Had put together in his early days. It showed a woman accordionist whose name I don’t remember. This was long before Bill formed The Bluegrass Boys in (I think?) 1944.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Sally Ann Forrester who shows up in our This Day in History three times.

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    Accordion solo comes in around 1:56

    Credits say:
    Mandolin: Bill Monroe
    Accordion: Wilene "Sally Ann" Forrester
    Bass: David Akeman
    Bass: Bill Westbrook
    Fiddle: Robert R. "Chubby" Wise

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  8. #30

    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Roy Acuff had a lot of accordion on his records for a while. It sounds good to me.

  9. #31

    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.



    Lot of accordion on this classic too.

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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Here is a fun video from Marcel that is somewhat related to the discussion.

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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    That was awesome, while I was aware of most of it, the bluegrass history after 1960 is somewhat elusive, there was a lot he missed but I understand the need to compress and highlight the most well known artist and material, and he was 100% correct about Doc, it doesn't matter which tune or album you listen to, your life will change after the first time you hear Doc Watson.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    That was awesome, while I was aware of most of it, the detailed bluegrass history after 1960 is somewhat elusive to me ( as it seems to go in 1000 different directions) , there was a lot he missed but I understand the need to compress and highlight the most well known artist and material, and he was 100% correct about Doc, it doesn't matter which tune or album you listen to, your life will change after the first time you hear Doc Watson.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Getting a bit off topic possibility but in response to the post above, the podcast Fresh Air recently had a superb show dedicated to what would have been Doc Watson's 100th birthday. List to it here.

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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    First I’ve never heard an electric bass that did not have at least one of s couple problems
    1) no depth -most BG bands using electric base have a hole bottom end because bass isn’t filling it. Bass is turned up too loud to compensate but doesn’t work. A rock or a “country” band had a kick drum filling this hole.
    2) way too much sustain, increased by too much volume trying to compensate for above problem. A bluegrass bass needs to hit hard and fall off quick. Sustain lowers drive which is essential to good BG. Listen to early greats all with a real bass, even slow songs just drive through you. I know some try to “kill” strings quickly to simulate the rapid fall of a real base but it doesn’t work

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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    What I hear from many non professional bass players is the upright has the best sound but is hardest on the hands, so they tend to prefer electric bass guitars.
    Also for casual jams much easier to tote an electric bass guitar and small amp around.
    The Bass ukes are gaining in popularity as well, having even shorter scale necks and a smaller instrument, I'll admit they are kind of droney and muddy at times.
    I don't disagree with the comments on sound, its true nothing beats an acoustic double bass, especially if some occasional bowing is involved.
    There was a guy playing mando bass at Mandocamp North, it sounded pretty cool, but he said it was murder on the hands.
    Electric mandolins, electric fiddles, electric banjos, and of course electric guitar and electric bass all have appeared in modern bluegrass, none seem to "stick" though, Somehow we always find ourselves back at the acoustic classic lineup, to me that's a good thing.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    It's easy for a guy who only has to tote an itty bitty mandolin to say the other guy should be shlepping around a humongous doghouse bass.
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  21. #39

    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    First I’ve never heard an electric bass that did not have at least one of s couple problems
    1) no depth -most BG bands using electric base have a hole bottom end because bass isn’t filling it. Bass is turned up too loud to compensate but doesn’t work. A rock or a “country” band had a kick drum filling this hole.
    2) way too much sustain, increased by too much volume trying to compensate for above problem. A bluegrass bass needs to hit hard and fall off quick. Sustain lowers drive which is essential to good BG. Listen to early greats all with a real bass, even slow songs just drive through you. I know some try to “kill” strings quickly to simulate the rapid fall of a real base but it doesn’t work
    Some of this can be helped with technique: palm muting reduces sustain and adds extra thumpiness. Still not as good as an upright but better than normal bass guitar fingerstyle.

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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    ..............On the occassion of this, my first and last, trip to the US, in 1969, Bluegrass was in a very unhealthy state. E.g., Bill Monroe led one sorry band,................
    I am curious who you saw with Monroe 1969. From the Ewing book, the band in 1969 for the most part included James Monroe--guitar, Rual Yarborough-banjo, and Kenny Baker--fiddle, and a couple of different bass players. Perhaps James was the weak link, as he admittedly had not played much guitar before moving there from bass after Roland White left.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by milli857 View Post
    Some of this can be helped with technique: palm muting reduces sustain and adds extra thumpiness. Still not as good as an upright but better than normal bass guitar fingerstyle.
    Your technique description sounds a bit like my wife's playing. After 40+ years on the upright bass, she has most recently been playing a Guild Jumbo Junior bass, to give her aching hands a break. We are quite happy with the sound, but it has to be amplified to be heard. And the Guild fits in the camper so much better when we are traveling!
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ralph johansson View Post
    In my view the state of a musical art form is determined by public professional performances and commercial recordings, not social gatherings or jamsessions.
    I suppose it is the only "objective measure". And probably true enough for bluegrass.

    But it misses a lot. Its one of the reasons I love old time. There are some"professionals" and some concerts and some commercial recordings, but a whole lot of old time music, if not most of it, occurs under the radar, off the grid, on folks's back porches, behind tents at festivals, in kitchens, and wherever someone comes home beaten up by their soul draining job and picks up a fiddle to regain some humanity before dinner.

    I would say that the state of old time music, such as it is, is much more determined off the grid under the radar and of the spot light. Part of its charm IMO.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Jordan View Post
    I am curious who you saw with Monroe 1969. From the Ewing book, the band in 1969 for the most part included James Monroe--guitar, Rual Yarborough-banjo, and Kenny Baker--fiddle, and a couple of different bass players. Perhaps James was the weak link, as he admittedly had not played much guitar before moving there from bass after Roland White left.
    Doug Green was on bass. His command of the instrument was very elementary, open strings in G, no connecting figures, etc. At Berryville I jammed a bit with him and his Detroit area buddies (one of them drove me from Detroit to Berryville) and he was visibly relieved to be playing the guitar with us. He told us that Monroe usually had him and James swap instruments on Virginia Darlin', which has a bass solo. Later that summer Bill Yates took his place. I watched that edition at the Grand Ole Opry in August. So Yates began that summer season in Jimmy Martin's band and ended up in the Country Gentlemen!

    There wasn't much drive in that band. It took people like Mac Wiseman and Jimmy Martin to supply that on the Bluegrass Story segment.

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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Russ Jordan View Post
    Your technique description sounds a bit like my wife's playing. After 40+ years on the upright bass, she has most recently been playing a Guild Jumbo Junior bass, to give her aching hands a break. We are quite happy with the sound, but it has to be amplified to be heard. And the Guild fits in the camper so much better when we are traveling!
    A former-pro buddy of mine, Marshall Billingsley (Bluegrass Alliance, in the lineup with Vince Gill) switched from his doghouse to uke bass in recent years. Just so much easier for home to carry around, and he’s an awesome musician and sounds great as ever on his lil bass. Granted, he no longer plays the Opry, just small venues, churches and house gatherings, but it’s in his head, heart and hands more than the instrument of choice. Amplified, of course, but so has his bass fiddle been for many years. A long time grasser, but his greatest love has always been Texas Swing, so he doesn’t turn up his nose at electric guitars, either. To each his own.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandoplumb View Post
    First I’ve never heard an electric bass that did not have at least one of s couple problems
    1) no depth -most BG bands using electric base have a hole bottom end because bass isn’t filling it. Bass is turned up too loud to compensate but doesn’t work. A rock or a “country” band had a kick drum filling this hole.
    2) way too much sustain, increased by too much volume trying to compensate for above problem. A bluegrass bass needs to hit hard and fall off quick. Sustain lowers drive which is essential to good BG. Listen to early greats all with a real bass, even slow songs just drive through you. I know some try to “kill” strings quickly to simulate the rapid fall of a real base but it doesn’t work
    I'm primarily a bass player, and play my uprights most of the time because that's what i like to play and hear, and it's even a better ergonomic fit for me. But I think I could switch between electric and my Kay on stage, in an amplified band, and you wouldn't know the difference without peeking. Of course an unmiked situation is different, where more nuance is audible, but it's very possible to compensate for all the problems you mention.

    He needs to put some foam under the strings and pull a little harder here for the punch, but it can be done. Lest we forget what a monster Tyminski is on mandolin...


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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    But I really like this crackerjack young band he's put together.


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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    A couple of observations. I saw an interview with Dickey Betts recorded in the early '80s. He was asked what happened to Southern Rock; why did it disappear. He said it is alive and well in Nashville. It's called Country Music. He named several of the modern Country stars who had added elements of the Southern Rock style to some of their songs. He had recently moved to Nashville and had a new record coming out - labelled Country music.

    This is instructive about Bluegrass. Most of the recordings come out of Nashville. Many of the big stars live there or go there to record. The producers are determined to make money. Money is made by creating a new sound. A new sound is usually created by mixing existing styles. The producers are probably far more the driving force for change than the musicians. Not much money is made by sticking to the same old sounds already recorded by someone else. The original music may be great, but sticking to it exclusively is why Bluegrass musicians can expect to earn tens of dollars.

    The evolving Country music sound has been a huge money maker for years. Bill Monroe was recorded in the early '50s in Nashville with a Country style sound insisted on by a couple of producers. The Country rhythm is now predominant in a lot of Bluegrass. Jazz and Swing ideas are the latest additions, brought in mostly by players who have some formal music education, and strongly encouraged by record producers who would like to make money. The recordings we listen to have a huge influence on the sound we identify with. Always have.

    I think the biggest change is the acceptance and influence of the formally educated musicians. Bluegrass has a reputation for many of the old timers excluding trained musicians. If you read music, they didn't want you playing with them. That old view is disappearing rapidly and, some would say, the feel of the old music is disappearing along with it.

    To use Dickey's analysis, Bluegrass music is alive and well. It's in Nashville, and it's called Bluegrass. It rarely sounds like Bluegrass, just as Country music rarely sounds like Southern Rock. Thankfully, there are old timers still around in various places, as well as a (very) few young folks, who have a passion to keep the original sounds alive, without the desire to make a living doing it.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    here are some"professionals" and some concerts and some commercial recordings, but a whole lot of old time music, if not most of it, occurs under the radar, off the grid, on folks's back porches, behind tents at festivals, in kitchens, and wherever someone comes home beaten up by their soul draining job and picks up a fiddle to regain some humanity before dinner.
    Just to add a few follow on comments, from my experience and extended experience (the experience of those I have played OT music with).

    It is less common in OT to find players trying to play like some recording. One might listen to a recording to check out the phrasing of a passage, or to get an idea of the tune, but the ultimate goal is not to play like someone else, but to be yet another player of the tune, to be another slave to the melody.

    The exception to this is when a particular old time player's style is so engaging one doesn't want it to be forgotten. So more than a few might try to grab the style of Melvin Wine, or Henry Reed, or Tommy Jarrell, but even this is more of an homage than an emulation.

    And while I do sometimes play in a band or play a concert, it is almost a necessary evil. Something to endure to keep my chops up or to make sure the music itself is represented at a venue, or to share more formally a particular tune.
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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by JiminRussia View Post
    I wish that I old find that old photo of a band that Bill Had put together in his early days. It showed a woman accordionist whose name I don’t remember. This was long before Bill formed The Bluegrass Boys in (I think?) 1944.
    I already commented on this in #9. The Bluegrass Boys were formed in 1939 (or possibly 1938) ; they joined the Opry that same year, and made their first record for Victor in 1940. Wilene Forrester joined in 1943.

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    Default Re: The Change That I See in Bluegrass Over The Past 20 Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by newton View Post
    Roy Acuff had a lot of accordion on his records for a while. It sounds good to me.
    But this thread is about Bluegrass.

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