How special is this sound?

[Melt_in_the_Sun]

Heresy around here, but I've always thought most mandolins sound pretty much the same. I've been perfectly happy with a "high end" Alvarez f-style I bought off the wall at a small shop in S. Illinois almost 20 years ago. Sure there are some that are louder and clearly better, but I've never felt I needed an upgrade.

Then I saw the video below. This sound is really enchanting and I feel the MAS churning...

For y'all who know much more about this stuff than I:
- is this a truly special instrument?
- is this just a typical high-quality oval hole sound, albeit flawlessly played and recorded?
- some combination thereof?

[Chris Fannin]

Can’t say I know much about that particular instrument but Carl Miner is an incredible guitar and mandolin player.

[Melt_in_the_Sun]

I guess I should be more specific - can I get something that sounds like this, without playing the vintage Gibson game?

[JEStanek]

Old Gibson ovals have a nice voice. If you get something similarly constructed (eg., the Eastman Oval Hole) you get something like that for more like Alvarez money. Ovals and F holes just sound different. Especially with the 12 vs 14 fret neck join and the non elevated fingerboard on the older ovals. The bracing is different on the soundboard as well.

Jamie

[sunburst]

...can I get something that sounds like this, without playing the vintage Gibson game?

Not all old Gibson oval hole mandolins sound as good, but it is not particularly difficult to find those that do.
I'm hearing a good set up (intonation is pretty good) and a player who can "pull tone" as they say. The recording is good too.
So my answer to your question is my own question: Can you "pull tone" like that? if so, you can get a mandolin that sounds very much like that. Put another way, it is mostly the player and to a lesser extent the instrument.

[Jim Garber]

Check out this recent thread on snakehead Gibsons. https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...h-so-much-more

[foldedpath]

I guess I should be more specific - can I get something that sounds like this, without playing the vintage Gibson game?

Don't judge anything you hear online without a large dose of salt, because modern audio processing can make anything sound great. I'm sure that's a good mandolin, but I'm also hearing a heavy dose of audio processing in that clip. The choice of microphone, the room acoustics, the preamp, ADC and anything done in post-processing before it hits YouTube is very different from hearing that instrument in your own hands.

You need to hold an instrument in your hands, and play it with your approach to the instrument to know what it's going to sound like.

[rcc56]

I've played quite a few oval hole Gibsons. They can vary tremendously in power, projection, tonal quality, and balance.

And yes, it can be difficult to discern how much of a recording's sound comes from the instrument, and how much comes from the electronics. And the player's touch has a great influence on what we hear. For what it's worth, this one sounds like it's probably a good one.

I remember walking into George Gruhn's then small shop around 1988 to find an instrument that was an upgrade from my Strad-o-lin.
In the shop that day were 5 or 6 F-4's, a couple of A models, and an F-10. I played all of them.
2 instruments stood out from all of the others: one of the F-4's, and the F-10. I wasn't impressed by the rest of them-- most were just ok, and a couple were weak.

I was making about $7.50 an hour back then. The F-10 was $4000, which was above my pay grade. So I gave George $1650 and brought the good F-4 home. I still have it.

Back then, I hadn't yet had the opportunity to play many old Gibsons. As time passed and I played others, I came to realize that my F-4 had something distinctive in its tone that I can't describe in words. It is only rarely that I hear that sound in other old Gibsons. I had indeed found a very good one.

================================================== =============================

Gibson made 40 or 50 thousand oval hole mandolins before the mandolin boom went bust. That's a lot of instruments. I have heard strong ones, weak ones, dark ones, bright ones, ones that sounded "tubby," and others that I would call "clear toned." The year and model don't necessarily seem to have a great influence on whether one is good, really good, great, or not much good at all.

The best way for one to learn about these mandolins is to play them every time the opportunity comes up. Forget the conventional wisdom about what year or model might be good or bad, and use your ears and your hands. Find out what they really sound like and what characteristics appeal to you. And be aware that what sounds best to one player might be different than what sounds good to another.

If you don't have opportunities to play before you buy, you may have to rely on recordings or what a seller tells you about the instrument, and hope that a seller's recordings and words are accurate. If you buy from an out-of-town seller, make sure they have a 48 hour return policy, make sure that they will honor it, and read the fine print. Buyers are expected to pay shipping both ways if they wish to return an instrument, and must make sure the instrument is securely packed if they ship it back.

Not all old Gibsons are equal. The right one can be a wonderful instrument.
Take your time and enjoy the hunt.

[rcc56]

I guess I should be more specific - can I get something that sounds like this, without playing the vintage Gibson game?

I haven't played many modern oval hole mandolins. They're not being made in large numbers, so I rarely see them. The ones that I have played seem to have their own kinds of sounds, and they are different from the voices of Gibsons. If a new one is an instrument of quality, it won't necessarily better or worse, just different.

[Jim Garber]

A lot of contemporary oval hole mandolins are hybrids. They have the neck join around the 12th fret and bracing of the F-5 and the tone is very different from snakehead era Gibson ovals. I have a Brentrup A-4c which is a pretty close copy of a 24 A-4 in tone and construction with vintage Gibsons—transverse top brace and shorter neck so the bridge is positioned lower on the body. Mike Black does build mandolins like that along with a very few other makers. Collings and Girouard ovals are more hybrids and while sounding very nice would be different in tone from vintage Gibson snakeheads or other ovals.

[Chuck Leyda]

Every time I hear Carl Miner play a mandolin, I want to buy the mandolin. Strange but it works that way on guitar too. He gets to play all the best instruments.
My Northfield never sounded like this!

In other words: If you want to make a mandolin special, just give it to Carl.

[b4idie]

Can someone identify the tune he is playing on the video for North American Guitar? .......... the first video? I just loved it .........
lane

[pheffernan]

Can someone identify the tune he is playing on the video for North American Guitar? .......... the first video? I just loved it .........
lane

That can be dangerous too. I once bought a mandolin but it turned out that what I really wanted to purchase was “Big Sciota” as played in the demo.

[Chris Fannin]

To my knowledge he just makes stuff up, sometimes on the spot for those videos. I've been tinkering with that one. Here's the sheet music I came up with starting right after he strums the Am chord. That first G to A is a slide on the D string then the open A.

[Toad]

It is indeed a beautiful sound to my ears! That is ultimately what makes an instrument special, the way the sound speaks to you. I recently bought a 1915 Gibson A oval hole because the sound grabbed me at the first G chord and didn't let go. I tried Northfields and Webers but this old Gibson had a deep, rich tone all it's own that I gravitated towards. I have found the snakehead oval holes for whatever reason seem to have a tighter response and sound ever so closer to the f hole tone to my ears, while the earlier teens have this full frequency tone that I am in love with. I haven't tried too many, but I'm sure as others say, some are great, some not.

Interestingly, I found the same player demoing a 1912 A4 that sounds extremely similar to mine, and this is the sound I can't live without...

[b4idie]

It is a great sound ........... so is the one making it!

[tmsweeney]

It does sound great and I'm sure Carl Miner has a lot to do with that, I've always heard good things about snake heads, but as with anything you will find really good ones and mediocre ones.
To me it seems there is less brassyness and bright edge you get with F style, tone could be affected by strings to.
I remember I played a Rigel A once at a jam and I thought it was the sweetest sounding mandolin I ever heard, but I've played other's since and not the same.
there is something to be said for the instrument sounding good in the first place, and a lot of your advanced player take the time and effort to search for and invest in a mandolin that fits thier desire.

[Ray(T)]

That ‘13 snakehead left the factory only a few months before mine! Apart from the way it’s played, it sounds to me like it’s down to a set of new monel strings, a good set-up and some unknown wizzardry in the recording process. (Must try some monel strings - that’s what mandolins of that age were designed for.)

[Melt_in_the_Sun]

Thanks everyone! Sounds like the answer, as always, varies.

I had never heard of Carl Miner or watched any of these videos before, and I certainly can't claim to "pull tone" like he does, but I'm a half decent player and have always prioritized precision over speed. In watching a bunch of his clips that I learned I do prefer the sound of the oval holes. So I learned something! I'll start keeping an eye out for them.

I've had fun over the last few days watching his fingers and learning that little tune.

[DaveNils]

On a side note, I have found all of Carl's demo videos to be really fun to try to learn by ear. As a relatively beginner player they are just about right. Challenging, but they sound great and arent played at 10,000 mph which I really appreciate. The tone really comes through. I dont disagree that the particular mandolin you posted sounds amazing, but he makes them all sound good. I highly recommend checking out all of them. My personal favorite is the black Collings MT

[sunburst]

...they sound great and arent played at 10,000 mph which I really appreciate. The tone really comes through...

It seems to me that this is the best way to demo an instrument.
Sometimes these things seems more like a player demo than an instrument demo. The playing in this one gives the mandolin a chance to 'show off' more than the player. I already mentioned "pulling tone", but tune selection and note selection also play into it.

[jimmy powells]

It sounds perfectly in TUNE which, to me, always make a great difference. I'm sure he would sound just as good on any reasonable quality mandolin. I think it's called experience.

[darylcrisp]

Carl is a monster player. Its easy to just sit down if he is in a shop playing different instruments and enjoy an amazing improvised concert. There's a video from TNAG where Lindsay Straw(monster guitar player herself) interviews Carl and he tells all-heck, i'll find it and post it here

[Polecat]

Don't judge anything you hear online without a large dose of salt, because modern audio processing can make anything sound great. I'm sure that's a good mandolin, but I'm also hearing a heavy dose of audio processing in that clip. The choice of microphone, the room acoustics, the preamp, ADC and anything done in post-processing before it hits YouTube is very different from hearing that instrument in your own hands.

You need to hold an instrument in your hands, and play it with your approach to the instrument to know what it's going to sound like.

+1 - That's a very "produced" sound.

[nick delmore]

I guess I should be more specific - can I get something that sounds like this, without playing the vintage Gibson game?

Possibly, but not without playing the oval hole game.