Mandolin in bal folk music?

[Eric Platt]

Am just dipping my toes into this music, but had an interesting experience at a bal folk jam this past weekend. After one tune, one of the other observed that the mandolin made the tunes sound more English than French. Not meant as a dig, just that the tonal qualities of the mandolin (as opposed to the 'zouk, or cittern) isn't normal for this music.

That made me wonder - are there many (or any) instances of mandolin playing in bal folk?If so, is it regionally based, or more general?

While I like the music, don't want to be the "ugly American" and play where I don't belong.

[Dagger Gordon]

I'm not completely certain if I'm understanding exactly what you mean by 'bal folk', but perhaps you might be interested in this thread on Music From Central France a year or two ago.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...Central-France

[DavidKOS]

I'm not completely certain if I'm understanding exactly what you mean by 'bal folk', but perhaps you might be interested in this thread on Music From Central France a year or two ago.

https://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/t...Central-France

I assume the OP means "Bal Folk" and not Bal musette.

[JCook]

I play in a group of about 7 people, called Ganivelle, and we play bal folk, which is mainly music from Central France and Brittany. I play octave mandolin, and we have a couple of fiddlers, one of whom also plays mandolin. The mandolin works great in the music, and it will sometimes be a solo, or a duet with me on the octave. We also have bagpipes, hurdy-gurdy, recorders and accordion and concertina, as well as percussion. Bal folk lends itself very well to variety and arrangement.

Jack

[Simon DS]

I’m not sure I understand you when you use the terms ‘French’ and ‘English’ in this context.
For example Cornwall is in England. The Massif Central is in the centre of France but many over here consider it to not be very French, Alsace is in France in some ways and there’s Corsica… Well it’s just a couple of examples and that’s before even talking about Folk music and its mongrel history!

Maybe they were confusing tone for rhythm because there are some rhythms that some people think of as quintessentially ‘English’, for example there is an accentuated slightly staggering cut time on the melodeon, maybe they were thinking of that? Or there’s a hesitating, bellows-catching Mazurka rhythm that I associate with some French melodeon players but probably because I haven’t heard many Italian players. English concertina? more odd (and beautiful) rhythms there too.

Oh, the mandolin? Play it!

[Eric Platt]

Thanks for the discussion so far -

Yes, I meant "Bal Folk" as in the music of central France and Brittany. Although many of these folks also play music from other regions of France.

Believe this was more about tonality than rhythm. The person specifically mentioned Simon Mayor as opposed to someone from France. We weren't playing mazurkas at this jam. Although most of these folks do play different versions of mazurka.

These were all keyboard and diatonic accordion. Not concertina. We also did not have any bombard, hurdy gurdy, bagpipes or cittern. All of which have been part of these jams in the past.

But thanks. It was more sounding to me like there was no basis for the mandolin to be playing the music. Although that has usually not stopped me in the past. But trying to be more considerate of other musicians.

[Simon DS]

There are Italian Folk Bal dances too, Portuguese.
I hope these musicians don't plan on not playing Flemish Bal Folk! in Wallonië.

Bal Folk is a lot more modern, like 1850's onwards and more welcoming with diverse instruments, banjos too, though I guess the boxes do impose themselves. (Classical piano education).

Maybe they are thinking of Trad. dances that are more conservative, like re-enactments with traditional costumes, set regional repertoire and very specific instruments?

[PsotnyPerun]

Having spent a few years going to bal folk dances and sessions I don't think anyone would frown upon seeing a mandolin. I know that the most common instruments are hurdy-gurdy, button accordion, flute, and fiddle, but if I recall correctly there was a relative freedom in instrument selection. As long as people can dance to your playing, it's fine.

I am not sure where is my bal folk music collection stashed, but I definitely remember mandolin being used on some of the recordings.

[Dagger Gordon]

There are Italian Folk Bal dances too, Portuguese.
I hope these musicians don't plan on not playing Flemish Bal Folk! in Wallonië.

I don't know much about Flemish Bal Folk, but recently I have been listening to Flemish accordion player Hartwin Dhoore quite a lot, who often plays with his brother Ward, who plays mandola (perhaps octave mandolin)in their duo Siger.

https://www.hartwindhoore.com/projects

https://www.hartwindhoore.com/projects/siger

[Martin Jonas]

As it happens, I've been dipping my toes into the bal folk repertoire over the past few weeks, with the results posted at my Youtube channel and over in the SAW Group on the forum. There's a great free tunebook here:

https://versbal.fr/file/tunebook

I don't play accordion, so I'm stuck with mandolin family instruments. Mandolin works fine on some tunes, but I found the bouzouki to be a better match for much of this music (or both together in unison). Great fun, and a different world of dance tunes to explore!

Martin

[DavidKOS]

I'd like to add couple of links too:

https://gurdyworld.com/wp-content/up...ntral-Pink.pdf

https://accordeonaire.com/bal-folk-tune-book-project/

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5wW...X2RCiAU5xhwO1Q

[brunello97]

Thanks, David, Martin, Simon, Dagger...and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone..

It seems we're once again converging on some of the same great music.

I think I've let on that I've been slipsliding away from the mandolin over the last few years.
Still playing often but my main focus has been the accordion.

My wife got me started with a PA, but I've fallen for the button boxes, myself.
Mostly 2-row GC and BC but I enjoy the CF range. I have the obligatory DG but find that a bit brighter for my taste.

And a 4-stop C and, of course, a Corona II. Yeah, I'm from Texas.

M(elodeon) AS.
That's the blessing / curse of the diatonic boxes.

We're headed back to Italy this summer and a proper organetto is on the agenda.

Eventually the herd will need to be thinned.

I'm swamped with music to explore already and y'all have overwhelmed me further.

Mick

[Simon DS]

A lot of it's to do with how people associate with the music (and to some extent a patriotic belief system).

A Bal Folk jam in MN. will necessarily be more stereotypical than in Europe.
You could have rules like 'no baseball hats' which would be fine perhaps.
It really depends what you want and especially what your fellow musicians are looking for. Remember that the memories of French ex-pats will be stereotypical too. It wont necessarily be what Bal Folk is actually like in the Old Country.

Best thing is if you arrive at the session wearing a black beret, a sailor's teeshirt and a garlic neckless, shouting oh, la la!!! dis-donc!! then they, and the audience will love the mandolin.

Martin's Bal Folk book is a good example of the overlap of stereotypes - it's literally packed with awful English trad. tunes
-and the first tune is from Belgium!

And your mention of Simon Mayor, do you mean that he's English?
I thought he was partly French.

[Alban Havidson]

"Bal folk" does not refer to a specific area in France and thus to a specific repertoire. In Brittany, they would more talk about Fest Noz.

The only area in France where mandolin could have a tradition seems to be Corsica. The instrument had its mandolin orchestra period at the end of the 19th century until the 1930s then Django Reinhart came and led everybody to the guitar. As a consequence, mandolin is quite uncommon in the traditional music landscape. The irish bouzouki is more present (probably due to the celtic music craze at the end of the 1990s). The bouzouki and mandolin use can be illustrated by Faubourg de Boignard, a band from Morvan (central France) : absolutely no mandolin or bouzouki tradition in this area (more bagpipe, hurdy-gurdy and accordion) but these instruments where integrated. Like in Ireland, the bouzouki may be appreciated for its more - let say - modal sound (think GDAD tunning) than a guitar.

[Martin Jonas]

My wife got me started with a PA, but I've fallen for the button boxes, myself.
Mostly 2-row GC and BC but I enjoy the CF range. I have the obligatory DG but find that a bit brighter for my taste.

And a 4-stop C and, of course, a Corona II. Yeah, I'm from Texas.

M(elodeon) AS.
That's the blessing / curse of the diatonic boxes.

I've never played a squeezebox in my life, but I have recently inherited a Walther Teeny 48 piano accordion in mint unplayed condition (my father bought it some years ago but couldn't cope with it and learned the English concertina instead).

Not quite the diato that seems to be used by most French folkies, but should be ideomatic for Italian dances and not too out of place in French music either. Learning it is a different matter, though.

Martin

[Eric Platt]

"Bal folk" does not refer to a specific area in France and thus to a specific repertoire. In Brittany, they would more talk about Fest Noz.

The only area in France where mandolin could have a tradition seems to be Corsica. The instrument had its mandolin orchestra period at the end of the 19th century until the 1930s then Django Reinhart came and led everybody to the guitar. As a consequence, mandolin is quite uncommon in the traditional music landscape. The irish bouzouki is more present (probably due to the celtic music craze at the end of the 1990s). The bouzouki and mandolin use can be illustrated by Faubourg de Boignard, a band from Morvan (central France) : absolutely no mandolin or bouzouki tradition in this area (more bagpipe, hurdy-gurdy and accordion) but these instruments where integrated. Like in Ireland, the bouzouki may be appreciated for its more - let say - modal sound (think GDAD tunning) than a guitar.

Thank you. This is what I was wondering about. At least half the other players have many years of visiting and playing in France and have a decent knowledge of the historic regional styles.

And yes, that seems to be the implication that maybe I should get a bouzouki and learn to play that instead of the mandolin on this style of music.

[Alban Havidson]

And yes, that seems to be the implication that maybe I should get a bouzouki and learn to play that instead of the mandolin on this style of music.

Well, you can get a bouzouki but can also find your own way. By this, I mean that innovation in traditional music is possible (my experience is that trying to be the most authentic is concern mainly if you are not from the given culture). Just a few illustrations:
- Was playing fiddle tune on a guitar popular before Doc Watson ?
- Were bouzouki and mandolin used in Irish music before Planxty ?

I play a little bit of Morvan traditional music on the mandolin. First step for me is having heard the tune (usually not mandolin), second is to find how to play it with a mandolin vocabulary (that is to say, feel how the mandolin sounds good). This main include adding things like:
- Let some open strings ring: it is modal music and sometimes already played on the fiddle.
- Get some inspiration from other traditions: celtic or scandinavian world I would say (more from the latter due maybe).

[Simon DS]

Veeeeery nice looking accordion Martin. Now I want to hear some of that on SAW!
I’m thinking of getting one of those Italian or English medieval oboe-like instruments…

[Alban Havidson]

I think I've let on that I've been slipsliding away from the mandolin over the last few years.
Still playing often but my main focus has been the accordion.

My wife got me started with a PA, but I've fallen for the button boxes, myself.
Mostly 2-row GC and BC but I enjoy the CF range. I have the obligatory DG but find that a bit brighter for my taste.

And a 4-stop C and, of course, a Corona II. Yeah, I'm from Texas.

M(elodeon) AS.
That's the blessing / curse of the diatonic boxes.

GC is the main setup in France except maybe in Britany as most of there bagpipes and bombardes are mostly in Bb. You see mostly diatonic accordions in French traditional music has it is settled for long in the landscape but also some chromatic ones. The chromatic accordion is more associated with musette in France which was initially a city thing before the ball musette spread in the country and took the place of the traditional music, hence some kind of banishment of the chromatic accordion in traditional music but as always, you will see some crossovers.

Due to the musette culture, the piano accordion is almost only played by piano players in France. A chromatic accordion is almost always a button one.

[DavidKOS]

Due to the musette culture, the piano accordion is almost only played by piano players in France. A chromatic accordion is almost always a button one.

Yes, from my experience with our local French music scene, which was closely associated with the Lark Camp world, there was a difference between the folk musicians that played with hurdy-gurdies and bagpipes, where the accordion players had 2 row diatonic accordions, and those that played Bal Musette and/or gypsy jazz, where the accordion players had 5 row chromatic accordions or less often, piano accordions.

[Bren]

Simon Mayor is a Yorkshireman and excels in many kinds of music.
I don't know if he'd be offended to be told that his playing sounds English more than French.
But do check out his recent CD of Carolan tunes. It's an absolute delight and the tunes are creatively- (in a good way!) arranged.
https://youtu.be/QSbGJHl_7cs?si=lV57HmekK10MdD9p
https://youtu.be/La1JnsuTYMg?si=DdtflENFb40EgbP9

Simon playing a Galician tune:
https://youtu.be/biW9OkWnaYo?si=XeHp3Yxzd57ehXHg

I don't think OP should feel bad if he sounds like an American playing French music. You are what you are, it is what it is.
Good music is the aim.

[Dagger Gordon]

"I don't think OP should feel bad if he sounds like an American playing French music. You are what you are, it is what it is."

Particularly if this is taking place in America.

But I do admire your thoughtfulness about it, Eric.

[Ian.S]

There's no reason at all why a mandolin shouldn't be used in a Bal Folk, the thing is they tend to drowned out by louder instruments, such as accordions and bagpipes. At one point there was a band called FMB in Brittany on the Fest Noz circuit, they had a mandolinist but he got got lost in the mix. We've been to many Fest Noz and Bal Folk events all over the UK and Europe and we've seen pretty much everything played at one time or another, I don't think brass works very well, it's the wrong sound. The only thing that IMHO should never ever be played is a melodica they're just nasty, a sort of musical toothache.

If anyone is looking for Bal Folk tunes checkout www.vitrifolk.fr hundreds (probably) of tunes for dancing. Including obscure tunes for obscure dance.

[Simon DS]

Many thanks!
VITRIFOLK NOTATION IS HERE and here are the respective MIDI FILES.

[Ian.S]

Well duh, how dim am I? I've been using vitrifolk for years to find new tunes and I hadn't realized there were midi files...! Thankyou...Even more time to spend looking for tunes.