Help identifying old mandolin

[scrappy1]

Hi all, newbie here. Just returning to playing guitar after a long break. I'm planning on adding mandolin to my daily play, but first thing is whether or not to put a little money into this mandolin. It was my dads so even if its low end, it still means something to me. If not playable, at least a wall piece. So he played it as far back as I can remember [the 60's] and it looked old even then. The label is worn and torn, and I can't make out the letters, but the shape and style might be of some help to the mandolin expert. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[rcc56]

That is a Lyon & Healy style A.
It was the top model of L & H's mandolin line. They were introduced in the later 1910's and made through most of the 1920's.
They were built to be in direct competition with Gibson's mandolins, and were very well made and sound very good.
Yours is a very early example, with a symmetrical 2 point body. Most style A's were built with an asymmetrical 2 point body.
They are mandolins of very high quality, and are highly regarded, especially by the classical mandolin community. Many old-time players like them also.

Definitely worth fixing up. Although yours is quite worn and is missing the tailpiece cover, it is worth at least a couple of thousand dollars.

Please take a measurement from the nut to the 12th to determine the scale length. L & H also made a handful of mandolas with that body style. If the distance is roughly between 6 1/2" and 7", it is a mandolin. If it is between 7 1/2" to 8", it is a mandola.

[Charles E.]

What you have is an "A" style mandolin made by the Lyon & Healy company from the early 1900's. It is a desirable mandolin and was their top of the line. It looks like it has been played hard so condition is an issue, hard to tell if those dark lines in the top are cracks or not. Definitely worth fixing up and playing, they are sweet mandolins.

[mrmando]

This is a Lyon & Healy Style A made in Chicago between 1918 and 1922. The serial number should be stamped inside on the upper rim.

The tailpiece cover is missing. The tailpiece base should have a patent date stamp or a Pat. Pend. stamp.

A Style A from this period in excellent playable condition is a very desirable mandolin worth $3500 to $4000. It's hard to say what this one is worth because of all the top cracks. This mandolin would need to be repaired or even retopped by a qualified luthier, and even when fully restored it'll be worth substantially less. But it is absolutely worth repairing.

If you let us know where you live, someone can likely recommend a qualified luthier. I wouldn't let just anyone work on a Lyon & Healy.

If repair is more than you want to deal with, you could sell it as is and use the proceeds for a new mandolin.

[EdHanrahan]

... worth at least a couple of thousand dollars.

Seven or eight years a go, I got to try out a pretty nice L&H at a small music shop in Maine. They were asking $3.4K. Wish I could have afforded it!

... hard to say what this one is worth because of all the top cracks.

Wear yes, but cracks? Looks more like a dumb (typical) kid running fingernails down the wood grain for, ya know, fun? Notice how many of them stop short of the finger rest or bridge.

[NickR]

The label appears to be the remains of the Washburn type used from 1925 to 1927. That would have the model number inked in but presumably, that has gone. It looks like a Style 5283 De Luxe presumably from the mid-20s with that label present, which is like a Style A from the early 20s. Maybe, it was made in the early 1920s and sold a little later- hence the label. The screw which goes through the pickguard by the point was dropped some time in the 1920s. One other puzzle is the fact that the body is symmetrical and after 1921 the bodies became asymmetrical in shape and this may suggest an earlier build date than the label suggests.

Edit: This is an analysis of a later 1920s built example- asymmetrical but we do not see the label but it states Style A- not the later number version. https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...nt-carved.html

This is I believe the style of label in your mandolin- this one is from a guitar of the period:

[mrmando]

If it's a mandola, that would account for it having a later label but still being symmetrical. The mandola design was never changed. I'm currently away from my Washburn book and my mandola so it's hard to say.

I hope we hear back from the OP.

[mrmando]

Here FWIW is another symmetrical mandolin with the same label. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...yle-1837258858

[NickR]

Here's an other mandola- different label but it does have the screw through the pickguard at the point: https://jakewildwood.blogspot.com/20...arved-top.html

[scrappy1]

Thank you all for the replies. So, from the nut to 12 fret is 6 1/2 to 7 inches. I cannot locate a serial number anywhere. Can anyone tell me exactly where to look? The dark lines across the top are more like grooves. Like if you pressed hard with a ball point pin, what would appear on the surface underneath the paper. The back is starting to separate below the neck, and there's a few faint cracks on the side, but I'll be darned if it doesn't sound like it did when I was a kid. It doesn't sound like it has any issues. I can imagine what it would sound like restored. The tailpiece does not have any markings or stamps. Could there be underneath it? I live just outside of Yuma AZ, so Phoenix would, and is my go, to for almost everything. If anyone has any recommendations there, please let me know

[mrmando]

Hold the mandolin face up and parallel to the floor, with the headstock on your left and tailpiece on your right. Bring it to eye level and look through the sound hole at the rib along the treble side. The serial number is stamped along the top of the rib.

[mrmando]

Now that the Mandolin Store has pulled out, I'm not sure what Phoenix has to offer in the way of lutherie. Any ideas?

[scrappy1]

Thank you, and the number is 851

[scrappy1]

There are quite a few musical instrument stores in Phoenix that do repair, and restoration, I'm just not familiar with them

[scrappy1]

Interestingly there is an ended listing on Reverb that shows the same dark line/grooves on the top

https://reverb.com/item/35530185-lyo...yle-a-mandolin

[scrappy1]

#851

[NickR]

From your measurements, it appears to be a mandolin. The scale length will be either 13 inches or slightly smaller, so that distance to the 12th fret should be no more than 6.5 inches- exactly half the scale length. The scale length of the mandola is given at this link below as 15.75 inches which would have meant you would have measured nearly 8 inches, so I think we can rule out the mandola pun not intended. The advertisement also gives other measurements that you can compare to your instrument but I think it is clearly not a mandola. It seems odd that it has that later label but mrmando posted up another with the same shape and label- so it's a mystery.

Here is another mandola: https://vintage-instruments.com/shop...-1925-chicago/

[mrmando]

Most symmetrical Style A mandolins should have the longer 13 7/8" scale, although I would hesitate to rule out the possibility of a 13" one. (I once had a Style C that broke a couple of rules.) As for the label, maybe it went back to L&H for service early in its life and got a replacement label for some reason, or maybe it sat around the shop for a couple of years before being finished, labeled and sent out the door.

[EdHanrahan]

(sorry, sloppy edit!)

[EdHanrahan]

... The tailpiece does not have any markings or stamps.

Pretty sure that the one I referenced above (bunch of years back) had a fairly elaborate "Washburn" cover. But I'm far from expert and not sure if yours, with the "trigger lever" (?) setup, is supposed to have a separate cover or not. The lever somewhat protects the picking hand from the string-end windings (that can be nasty, especially a century ago), but the tailpiece edges are still exposed. Just based on looks, I suspect that it did have a cover.

[mrmando]

The tailpiece does not have any markings or stamps. Could there be underneath it?

The tailpiece bases were stamped PAT. APLD. FOR, and then after the patent was received, they were stamped PAT. 4-15-19. The stamp is found at the lower edge of the base, just above the string hooks, and the strings lie on top of the stamp, making it hard to detect. See photo (this is from Style B #1475).



However, there was a batch of tailpiece bases that had neither stamp! Here is my ad for Style B #821, which I've actually sold twice — another Lyon & Healy with an unstamped tailpiece base and a serial number close to yours. I didn't get a good photo of the label and don't recall offhand which label this one had.

https://emando.com/shop/sold/Lyon_an..._Style_B_2.htm

There isn't a foolproof way to date Lyon & Healys, but obviously if an instrument has a tailpiece base with the 4-15-19 stamp, it was assembled sometime after that date. And if it doesn't, it may have been assembled before that date. Yours does have the 1918 patent date on the pickguard, so 1919 seems like the most likely time frame. We don't know exactly when L&H ran out of old tailpiece bases and started using the new ones.

[mrmando]

The stamp is found at the lower edge of the base, just above the string hooks, and the strings lie on top of the stamp, making it hard to detect.

It looks like No. 851, the OP's mandolin, has the old fuzzy-ended strings installed. Those would be perfect for completely covering up a patent date stamp!

[scrappy1]

It looks like No. 851, the OP's mandolin, has the old fuzzy-ended strings installed. Those would be perfect for completely covering up a patent date stamp!

Perfect indeed, and they do. I can make out a P, and a 9. I'm wanting to remove the strings all together. They've been on the mandolin for 50 years. Am I at risk of damaging my instrument if it is left un-strung for a period of time?

[Billy Packard]

Personally I would leave it completely alone aside from new strings and a gentle wipe down with violin polish. And fretboard cleaning if necessary.
If there are actual cracks or splits anywhere in the wood they should be discreetly repaired.
That is a beautiful survivor and precious indeed.

Billy

ps, I encourage you to find a skillful aficionado who delights in restoring it to a fully playable condition without any unnecessary extra work.
I bet it will sound incredible!

[mrmando]

As far as repairs go, I figure there have to be a number of Roberto-Venn apples who didn't land far from the tree in the Phoenix area.

Here's one:
https://www.phoenixfretworks.com/faq/

It *might* be worth calling Roberto-Venn and asking for a referral.
https://roberto-venn.com/