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Thread: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandolin?

  1. #1
    Registered User Freddyfingers's Avatar
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    Default Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandolin?

    Hi all. I have an octave that has had some really tight tuners since i got it about two years ago. I am looking to replace them as the way the hole octave was built, i am guessing they are not top of the line. Some require a lot of turning and little string movement and others require the bionic hand to turn. It’s not my nut as they glide through there well.

    My newcomer to tuners question is whether or not octave mandolin tuners are the same as mandolin tuners. I did a search for replacements and dont see any sold as just for octave, just the difference between A and F. I am also hoping when i measure the spacing i can get some dop in replacements.

    FWIW it’s a Mia octave, which she made for me. It has its issues, and i have put more money into it to correct them than its worth and some issues just cant be corrected. I paid more than i what I think it’s worth, but we all learn as we go, just trying to get it to work the best it can.
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    Last edited by Freddyfingers; Feb-20-2023 at 9:32am. Reason: Typo
    Its not a backwards guitar.

  2. #2
    Registered User John Kelly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    You should be able to swap them for a set of mandolin tuners and if it is a modern instrument then you will be able to source a set from any of the well-known makers. I have always used the same tuners on my instruments whether octave, mandola or mandolin. Those on your octave have the F-style configuration.

    One thing to check before you change tuners is to measure carefully the actual holes that the tuners are going through on the headstock. If any of the holes is even slightly out in its positioning then it can make the tuners behave as yours seem to be doing, some winding easily and others sticking. I know this from my own building experiences! To do the measuring I would suggest removing the existing set and then very carefully measuring the distance and alignment of the eight drilled holes. You may find that one hole is slightly closer or further away from its neighbour than it should be, or is slightly out of straight-line alignment. I mention this as you say you have already had various issues addressed and it has cost you a lot.
    I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order. - Eric Morecambe

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  4. #3
    Registered User Freddyfingers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Thanks! I will take the time to look at the spacing. If that is off, i am guessing i have to get individual tuners, or ream out the hole. But this is very helpful!
    Its not a backwards guitar.

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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    If there’s space for individual tuners, that’s the way I’d go. I have a Fylde mandolin with those and it’s a dream to tune - better than either my Waverly equipped A or Allessi equipped F.

    Should you still go the “four on a plate” route, the other thing to check is that the tuner shafts/buttons clear the edges of your headstock. Not all tuners are created equal.

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  7. #5
    Registered User Freddyfingers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Good point. My head stock isn’t a normal shape either.
    Its not a backwards guitar.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Those appear to be Kluson copies. They are worm over F style tuners. That limits you a bit but there are good tuners available from Gotoh and others. If you buy Grover worm over F style tuners they will turn backwards. Rubner also makes Worm over F style tuners but they aren't always available. They should be standard mandolin tuners but you have to get the orientation right.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
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    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
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  10. #7
    Registered User Freddyfingers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Those appear to be Kluson copies. They are worm over F style tuners. That limits you a bit but there are good tuners available from Gotoh and others. If you buy Grover worm over F style tuners they will turn backwards. Rubner also makes Worm over F style tuners but they aren't always available. They should be standard mandolin tuners but you have to get the orientation right.

    Worm over is a new term to me. I will take a look and see what i can find. When you say orientation, does that refer to which way they turn?
    Its not a backwards guitar.

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    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Worm over, worm under orientation. The late Paul Hostetter left us with this page that explains it well.

    By the way, your headstock appears to be a fairly normal F style shape.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

  12. #9
    Registered User Freddyfingers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeEdgerton View Post
    Worm over, worm under orientation. The late Paul Hostetter left us with this page that explains it well.

    By the way, your headstock appears to be a fairly normal F style shape.
    I learn something almost everyday here! Thanks. But i bet up still screw it up.
    Its not a backwards guitar.

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    Registered User foldedpath's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    As others said, just be careful enough when measuring and you should be okay with standard mandolin tuners. Check to make sure the holes drilled in the peghead are perfectly perpendicular to the surface, because that can cause binding in existing or newly installed tuners.

    I replaced the tuners that came on my Weber Yellowstone F octave with Waverlys, mainly for the aesthetics of ebony tuner knobs but they're also a smidgen more smooth than the Schallers it came with. A few of the screw holes on the plates didn't match, but it was easy to drill new holes and the tuner plate covered up the old holes. I also had to use the Schaller bushings instead of the ones supplied with the Waverlys because the upper hole was drilled out a bit larger, but that worked fine.

    One final thing to watch out for when measuring is the length of the shafts so there is clearance for the buttons on the end at the edge of the peghead. On a big F-style headstock like mine on the Weber or what looks like yours, the clearance for the inboard G string and E string (second from the bottom on each side) can be pretty tight depending on how the peghead is shaped and the stock tuner plates mounted. My Waverly tuner buttons clear the peghead edge but it's close.
    Lebeda F-5 mandolin, redwood top
    Weber Yellowstone F-5 octave mandolin

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  15. #11
    Registered User Freddyfingers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Waverly costs a bit more than i am willing to shell out. But i bet they are smooth in use. I am searching for another set of the Klusen with the black buttons.
    Its not a backwards guitar.

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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    that's a nice looking basic octave mandolin. how does it sound?

    if you like how it sounds, it is worth getting it playable (you do not mention it's other problems, but I am curious).

    before you purchase new tuning machines, examine what you have: take the strings off, take the little screws out and observe how easy/tight the tuning machines sit in their slots. I recently saw a very nice octave mandolin where the tuning machines were not seated right and the posts were getting stuck against the holes in the headstock, would barely rotate (this has to be fixed by luthier/woodworker, likely replacement tuning machines would not sit well, too).

    then hold the tuning machines in your hand, turn the knobs many times, see if all 8 of them feel the same, some knobs could be too tight or too loose or would stuck and grind through part of the rotations. if this happens, replace the tuning machines (the ones you have, with unaccessible covered gears, is probably hard to service/adjust).

    others have described how you would measure the post hole spacing and the mounting hole pattern. I hope you can get this resolved!

  17. #13
    Registered User Freddyfingers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Hi. Great info! I ordered it from a builder called Mia. I wanted an octave for a long time but didnt have the money for what most decent ones start at. Plus she would make it whatever color i wanted. Plus side, it’s blue, has a drawing my son created when he was a lot younger laser burned into it. Down side, i could not get the strings low enough to play quickly, without significant buzz. From about the 13th fret up, buzz. I was able to send it back but was told she couldn’t hear the buzz and shipped it back. Had a luthier somewhat near me take a look at it and discovered a bunch of frets up and down the fret board were not seated all the way and crooked so to speak. He worked on that and leveled the frets and crowded them, but the way the neck was set, the upper frets will always be just too high for lower action. Considered having them pulled out, but opted not to even though they are not playable without buzz, they should be there. Cost way too much to have the neck reset, and with different gauge strings i have never gotten around it. The G and D strings buzz the most. Top is a bit thicker than one would want, so the acoustic sound is rather soft. It has a K and K like pickup which after taking the jack out and resoldering works. There have been times that i just raised the strings higher and tuned it open and played slide on it. But it looks cool from a distance.
    Its not a backwards guitar.

  18. #14
    Registered User Freddyfingers's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    Just to follow up, i ordered a replacement Kluson set. They arrived yesterday and were installed by me. One of the fw repairs i ever did successfully. Had a local instrument guru look at the old tuners while still mounted. He agreed they were too tigh, so he took one side off, gave it a shot of lube and they worked a bit better, but the other side had two that would not budge easily, after removal he found corrosion on two tuners, inside the hole. After closer inspection he determined it looked like salt water corrosion as he has had enough of his things corroded by sea salt. How that got in there i dont know as i live no where near there, nor have i taken it further than to his shop for repairs. Either way problem solved, a little more cash into an already expensive octave. But i learned a few things from you guys and else where, so kind of worth it.

    Thanks!
    Its not a backwards guitar.

  19. #15
    Moderator MikeEdgerton's Avatar
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    The late Paul Hostetter posted this great picture of the inside of a Kluson tuner. It's always enlightening.
    "It's comparable to playing a cheese slicer."
    --M. Stillion

    "Bargain instruments are no bargains if you can't play them"
    --J. Garber

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  21. #16
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    Default Re: Replacing Octave mandolin tuners, are they the same as mandol

    yikes, rusted tuning machines. probably rusted from before they were installed on your octave. as for "already expensive", there is no such thing as a "cheap" octave. below $1000 are "needs work" OSOs, above $5000 are "plays great out of the box", anything in the middle has some problem or other. you said it is not super loud, i say do not worry about that, we have one meh-sounding octave here, it got recorded at an irish session and it sounded just right, perfect match to the music in volume and tone. i say get it fixed and play the frets off it!

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