Left hand technique

[Mark Gunter]

It seems I did understand your query from the outset, Bill, and as I stated at the first, I don’t believe any comparative study analysing the fretting hand techniques of various players and genre exists. This is the kind of thing that every musician studies for him/herself. You do it by studying recordings, written materials, videos or actual lessons of the various players/genre that interest you.

An example of how I do this: Purchase lessons from Homespun from many different pros. Transcribe solos or melodies from favorite players and from any pieces regardless of genre that interest me. Watch videos from players, watch videos from teachers like Pete Martin, Brad Laird, Baron Collins-Hill. Study etudes from classical sources (like Bickford’s). As an aside, my old website included PDFs for a dozen old classical methods, including Bickford’s.

But you get the drift. There is a plethora of material available to us, so you can make comparative studies of pretty much anything, varied and limited only by your own imagination. I don’t know of any single source that makes comparative studies for you on a variety of left hand styles per player and genre.

[DavidKOS]

As an aside, my old website included PDFs for a dozen old classical methods, including Bickford’s.

But you get the drift. There is a plethora of material available to us, so you can make comparative studies of pretty much anything, varied and limited only by your own imagination. I don’t know of any single source that makes comparative studies for you on a variety of left hand styles per player and genre.

Your old website has a lot of good stuff on it!

In a way, I look at mandolin technique this way:

There is a collection of well developed classical literature and associated method books that pretty much share the same basic technical approach to playing the instrument. Much of this technique was used by players in other styles too.

Then there are the "everything else" idiosyncratic techniques used by many players, usually in folk genres.

So you have to choose what works for you.

[billhay4]

In reference to your query about types of music, that is correct David.
Bill

[JeffD]

So you have to choose what works for you.

I agree and I disagree. Everything I think about this is here.

[DavidKOS]

I agree and I disagree. Everything I think about this is here.

We both agree that there is a standard way to properly play mandolin. It's the way that the older method books all advocate - and the way I try to play.

Anytime I mention alternate techniques, it's not because I think they are good - I don't - it's just because many folks get upset when their own playing or the playing of their faves is criticized.

Honestly, I cannot disagree with anything in your well-thought-out and accurate article.

So when I said "So you have to choose what works for you." what I really mean is:

It's your own choice to play "wrong" - I can't stop you. And I'll not waste my time trying to convince you otherwise.

For instance, I don't advocate the use of a large round very thick "poker chip" pick. But it's considered the "right "pick by many players, even though none of the traditional old method books show any such picks.

I don't advocate planting the pinky - but many people do so anyway.

I don't think removing the upper frets or the whole fingerboard extension on F style mandolins is advisable - but it's a common practice.

I never use a strap even standing - but most people think a strap is a necessary part of a mandolinist's gear.

I'll say this again:

Many pro players play well in spite of their non-standard technique, not because of it.

[DavidKOS]

In reference to your query about types of music, that is correct David.
Bill

Thanks. Maybe it's worth you looking at the Bill Monroe video I posted earlier and seeing how he really played with both hands. Many of the things he does are in line with traditional mandolin technique, but he tend to pick more over the end of the fingerboard and often uses the 3rd finger of the left hand rather than the 4th, possibly for phrasing and adding little slides.

Many of your questions are answered in that video.

[Tom Haywood]

I guess, in general, I am seeking guidance on various ways to develop ones own interpretation of a song.
Bill

Three thoughts:

1. The very first interpretation of any song is the melody you hear in your head when you try to sing it. Attempting to sing it or hum it is essential. Then find those very notes on the mandolin. Try that melody in different octaves and different positions on the neck. Add one or two harmony notes to create a few double stops that are part of the chord at that point. You can't go wrong playing that melody, and you will begin to see relationships between those notes and the individual chords and the chord progression and everything else you've already learned. You can then begin to see efficiencies in how to get where you want to go with the tune, i.e. where your hand needs to be to finger the next few notes cleanly. Play the scale for the key you are in. Play it up and back down in different octaves. See how the melody plays up and down within that scale. See how the other available notes might happen on their own and be part of your interpretation.

2. String techniques such as slides create sounds that are common in genres. Sliding into the 3rd will add another level of interpretation while playing in a lot of different styles. So will simple hammer-ons. Tremolo at appropriate times. Keep it simple and play these with good control and you'll develop "your" sound.

3. Speed is more difficult to discuss. The slower you practice the melody, the better your fingers will learn it. That is essential, but it won't get you into the high speeds.
To play above about 190 bpm, you just have to put the rhythm at that speed and go. It's impossible at first, but you will find where to put your hands to play the "important" notes that paint that melody while leaving out a lot of melody notes. That's what Bill did. He developed a right hand technique and left hand placement that allowed him to get the important notes (i.e the notes he heard) on time.

I much prefer the "melodic" approach to interpretation over the "harmonic" approach. Things can stay simple and sound great. Some of the great jazz players had a simple rule for improvising in their bands. You had to start by stating the melody. That way, everybody knows what song you are playing, and you demonstrate that you know the song. After that, if you want to make it complicated, have at it. But then resolve to something that sounds a lot like the melody.

[DavidKOS]

Some of the great jazz players had a simple rule for improvising in their bands. You had to start by stating the melody. That way, everybody knows what song you are playing, and you demonstrate that you know the song. After that, if you want to make it complicated, have at it. But then resolve to something that sounds a lot like the melody.

Good point.

Where the jazz players often differ from folk players is that the jazz players are improvising based on the chord changes of the song; the melody is a great guide, but the idea is to create new melodies that fit the chord changes. Of course playing variations on the melody is a useful tool too.

So it also takes knowing all your chord arpeggios, the scales associated with those chords, and the melody AND chord changes of any particular tune to be a jazz improviser.

That said, my jazz teachers always told me that there is an art to just playing the straight melody well.

[mandocello8]

3. Speed is more difficult to discuss.

Speed is a good thing to discuss.

my current project is to learn to play contra dance tunes at contra dance speed, 120 bpm. on mandolin, it is a bit of a work out, on octave mandolin, it is a challenge.

i discovered that this brings into focus all and every technical defect. i have no rhythm in the left hand. i do not know the tune. i hold pick wrong. i use wrong pick. i hold mandolin wrong. mandolin setup is wrong. i have too much tension. my phrasing and my groove are wrong. most of the punch list items discussed here very recently.

at speed, everything has to be just right, or by the 4rd time through the tune, the wheels start to come off.

having gone through this, i can tell new people, with some confidence, "if you want to eventually play fast, this is how you should do X". (hold the pick, finger the left hand, etc)

[mbruno]

When I started playing music, I assumed every solo was improv and writing something down beforehand was cheating - when I realized that wasn't true, it made things a lot easier for me.

100% improvisation at high speeds is a lot more difficult than playing something written at high speeds. Of course it's easier to play a mash up of notes that may / may not work with the melody than to play something note for note - but playing whatever comes to mind for most players is not consistent and at times will sound horrible. Even for the best players, pure improv all the time likely wouldn't be their best playing.

Writing a solo / break beforehand provides a great skeleton to play with. Ideally, you hit every note you wrote. Practically, you'll probably miss a few from time to time - which is where being able to improv and bring in a new idea or move back to the original idea is important.

So, if you want to get faster, among many other things you can/should do like using a metronome, pick direction, rhythm etc, I'd say:

1. Write out your mandolin lines for songs in advance. Have your "go to" parts for that tune ready to go and try to play them note for note at speed every time. When you make mistakes, work to eliminate the mistake or decide to change the written part to include the "mistake" and play that.
2. Re-write out those mandolin parts often. When you have something that works great, that's awesome - keep playing it. But, you probably don't want to always play the exact same thing (especially at shows and jams where you have regulars) - so re-writing it important. This doesn't mean abandon the original or subsequent re-writes - just keep evolving.

Doing that will ultimately give you a big bag of riffs you can use for a particular tune that you can play at speed. Often these riffs can become somewhat interchangeable and you'll be able to start with one riff and end with another etc. Also it's really likely those riffs can be reused as is or with minor tweaks on other songs adding to the value.

[ralph johansson]

Good point.

Where the jazz players often differ from folk players is that the jazz players are improvising based on the chord changes of the song; the melody is a great guide, but the idea is to create new melodies that fit the chord changes. Of course playing variations on the melody is a useful tool too.

So it also takes knowing all your chord arpeggios, the scales associated with those chords, and the melody AND chord changes of any particular tune to be a jazz improviser.

That said, my jazz teachers always told me that there is an art to just playing the straight melody well.

Of course, in many ccontexts, such as one horn with three rhythm, the improvisation already starts
with the presentation of the melody.

[ralph johansson]

When I started playing music, I assumed every solo was improv and writing something down beforehand was cheating - when I realized that wasn't true, it made things a lot easier for me.

100% improvisation at high speeds is a lot more difficult than playing something written at high speeds. Of course it's easier to play a mash up of notes that may / may not work with the melody than to play something note for note - but playing whatever comes to mind for most players is not consistent and at times will sound horrible. Even for the best players, pure improv all the time likely wouldn't be their best playing.

Writing a solo / break beforehand provides a great skeleton to play with. Ideally, you hit every note you wrote. Practically, you'll probably miss a few from time to time - which is where being able to improv and bring in a new idea or move back to the original idea is important.

So, if you want to get faster, among many other things you can/should do like using a metronome, pick direction, rhythm etc, I'd say:

1. Write out your mandolin lines for songs in advance. Have your "go to" parts for that tune ready to go and try to play them note for note at speed every time. When you make mistakes, work to eliminate the mistake or decide to change the written part to include the "mistake" and play that.
2. Re-write out those mandolin parts often. When you have something that works great, that's awesome - keep playing it. But, you probably don't want to always play the exact same thing (especially at shows and jams where you have regulars) - so re-writing it important. This doesn't mean abandon the original or subsequent re-writes - just keep evolving.

Doing that will ultimately give you a big bag of riffs you can use for a particular tune that you can play at speed. Often these riffs can become somewhat interchangeable and you'll be able to start with one riff and end with another etc. Also it's really likely those riffs can be reused as is or with minor tweaks on other songs adding to the value.

Not sure what this has to do with left hand technique. But it's far removed from my own practce.When I got started on the mandolin in 1967 after ten years of guitar i was into colloquial, non-notated genres. I can read and write, treble and grand staff, bu tI never wrote anything out except (after years of playing) my own compositions. Everything else was in my head, not as riffs or licks, but as techniques and devices.

[ralph johansson]

Speed is a good thing to discuss.

my current project is to learn to play contra dance tunes at contra dance speed, 120 bpm. on mandolin, it is a bit of a work out, on octave mandolin, it is a challenge.

i discovered that this brings into focus all and every technical defect. i have no rhythm in the left hand. i do not know the tune. i hold pick wrong. i use wrong pick. i hold mandolin wrong. mandolin setup is wrong. i have too much tension. my phrasing and my groove are wrong. most of the punch list items discussed here very recently.

at speed, everything has to be just right, or by the 4rd time through the tune, the wheels start to come off.

having gone through this, i can tell new people, with some confidence, "if you want to eventually play fast, this is how you should do X". (hold the pick, finger the left hand, etc)

How many times do I have to explain that you can't specify tempo by bpm alone; you must also give the time signature. 120 bpm in 2/2 is a farily brisk tempo -- I resist going beyond that (even just listening). 120 bpm in 4/4 is a moderate, walking (andante), pace.

[Tom Haywood]

120 bpm in 2/2 is a farily brisk tempo -- I resist going beyond that (even just listening). 120 bpm in 4/4 is a moderate, walking (andante), pace.

Thanks for this reminder about accurately stating tempo.

Last year I discovered the value of writing out breaks for bluegrass songs played at 240-310 bpm 4/4 tempos, as mbruno suggests. I use Tabledit to create a four tab file for any song I want to deliver in public or use as a teaching aid. Been doing that for 10 years. It starts with a tab for the guitar chord progression and a bass tab. This provides accompaniment with infinitely adjustable tempo while I sing or play along. The third tab is a careful statement of the melody, which really helps get an accurate and often surprising understanding of the song. The fourth tab is a mandolin tab where I create a mandolin break based on a combination of the melody and some techniques and devices, or just tabbing out someone else's break to study. This is a convenient way to provide a changing mandolin lesson to a student.

Leading a bluegrass style band last year in one hour stage performances, playing guitar, memorizing 35 songs (and more) to have two sets ready to go, and playing with a banjo player who has no throttle limiter on his stage tempo, I needed a way to play a break for each song that fit the melody and moved the techniques and devices to the right place for the melody, and a way to do that at unexpected blistering speeds. Writing out the melody gave me an easy way to see which set of pickup notes to use for each song, which notes were important at speed, and where to use slides, etc. to get the best sound and help with speed, as well as an easy way to try changes to improve things. And it made it easier to remember all that.

[ralph johansson]

left hand? too many variables: (and FWIW, Maddie Witler teaches "left hand according to maddie witler" workshops)
- do you come from guitar and already play 1-finger-per-fret left hand? (choice - use same technique on mandolin or relearn to fiddle style 3-finger technique)
- do you intend to play octave mandolin and mandocello, eventually? (never say never again!)
- do you have very fat fingers and you can play one-finger x220 Em chord?
- do you have very long fingers and you can reach high-C no problem?
- do you want to eventually "play irish reels at 120 bpm"? (Susato Rondo Mon Ami at 60 bpm (youtube) and 112 bpm (dance speed) left hand technique is not same)
- are you in a one-mandolin-teacher town? (learn "their way or the high way")

When I read this I feel happy that I never consulted a teacher (I couldn't afford one, anyway). Looking back on my ten years of guitar before taking up the mandolin I do realize how a good teacher could have speeded up my progress but also how a poor teacher could have slowed it down. But when I took up the mando I had much clearer goals.

Most of the differences that people point out between guitar and mandolin are automatic consequences of the geometry of either instrument. E.g., I don't place my left thumb differently on the two instruments, I don't place it at all. Approach angle? On guitar you're concerned with reach across a wide neck (especially on a classic guitar, of course), on mandolin you're more concerned with reach along the neck.

x220 e minor chord? With no third? and an open e? The only instruction I ever had was a piece of advice: as a beginner, don't use open strings at all. As a result, I never wasted my time on the so-called two-finger chords, except, possibly, for some special effect.

Of course I never attempted chromatic fingering on a mandolin, realizing that, e.g., the 7 frets in first position outnumber my fingers. Hence, in a diatonic context; diatonic fingering. (and I don't understand the expression "fiddle style 3-finger technique"; I need all my fingers). I arrived at my technique by an organic process, it grew on me.

[ralph johansson]

Three thoughts:



I much prefer the "melodic" approach to interpretation over the "harmonic" approach. Things can stay simple and sound great. Some of the great jazz players had a simple rule for improvising in their bands. You had to start by stating the melody. That way, everybody knows what song you are playing, and you demonstrate that you know the song. After that, if you want to make it complicated, have at it. But then resolve to something that sounds a lot like the melody.

Stating the theme before each solo? I never heard of such a rule, and I don't know a recorded example. Classically, in swing and bop combos, the theme is stated in the beginning, then followed by several choruses of blowing and a recap of the melody, or, possibly, an out-chorus -- a famous example of this is the Hot CLub's version of Honeysuckle Rose, the out-chorus of which has almost become part of the actual song.

[mbruno]

Not sure what this has to do with left hand technique. But it's far removed from my own practce.When I got started on the mandolin in 1967 after ten years of guitar i was into colloquial, non-notated genres. I can read and write, treble and grand staff, bu tI never wrote anything out except (after years of playing) my own compositions. Everything else was in my head, not as riffs or licks, but as techniques and devices.

I could probably have been more clear but:

Writing out a piece prior to playing (whether physically on paper / software or in your head) will help with both left and right hand techniques.

By knowing the notes being played and the timing in advance you can select the most proper finger / proper picking direction. Having the notes planned out means you can focus on the technique and not what you are playing - which makes the technique practice better / more efficient.

It also helps for speed and improvisation - both mentioned immediately proceeding my comment.

[DavidKOS]

Of course I never attempted chromatic fingering on a mandolin, realizing that, e.g., the 7 frets in first position outnumber my fingers.

That's all good until you come across a tune with a chromatic run!

This is a passage from the Italian tune "Il Golfo Incantato, on the C chord end of line one and 1st measure line 2. I has a chromatic run from 5th fret 1st string A to 1st fret 2nd string A#.

Stating the theme before each solo? I never heard of such a rule, and I don't know a recorded example. Classically, in swing and bop combos, the theme is stated in the beginning, then followed by several choruses of blowing and a recap of the melody, or, possibly, an out-chorus

Yup, play the head, blow solos, play the head at the end.

[mandocello8]

x220 e minor chord? With no third? and an open e? ... [no] chromatic fingering ... [no open strings] ...

play more "celtic" music, learn advanced concepts such as 2 finger, 1 finger and 0 finger chords. (what?!? a 1 note chord?!?)

[ralph johansson]

That's all good until you come across a tune with a chromatic run!

This is a passage from the Italian tune "Il Golfo Incantato, on the C chord end of line one and 1st measure line 2. I has a chromatic run from 5th fret 1st string A to 1st fret 2nd string A#.

Another example, perhaps better known to members of this forum, is Temptation Rag. The first section (in c minor) has a two bar ascending chromatic run in the middle, from d' to g''
missing only e''. The problem, then, is which notes to actually pick -- to emulate the piano you may have to pick them all or somehow create the illusion of equally accented notes. Or maybe not ... Apart from that, it lies beautifully on the mandolin