Is there a good written source on the various ways to approach left hand technique? Classical, Monroe, etc.?
Thanks,
Bill
Is there a good written source on the various ways to approach left hand technique? Classical, Monroe, etc.?
Thanks,
Bill
IM(NS)HO
Search for The Bickford Mandolin Method. Old text in PDF format. It has detailed instructions at the front for both left and right.
--
2021 Eastman MD505
2000 Master Works hammered dulcimer
1953 Body
"on the *various* ways"
Hi Bill. Do you mean like a resource that makes comparisons of those different players/genres recommended techniques? I've never heard of such an animal. IMO the best resources are ones that show how to ergonomically approach the left hand (or rather, the "fretting hand" ... applicable to rightie or leftie). A good number of mandolin method books will cover left hand technique. Pete Martin's beginner series on ergonomics is a good primer. Most important, generally speaking, and in my humble opinion, is the angle of the hand across the neck, the (more or less) straight line from elbow to hand through the wrist, and the position of the instrument so that there is no tension in the shoulder, arm or wrist (and no work to support the instrument).
From there, you can always work on the fingers ... angle of "attack", minimal fretting pressure, fretting very near the actual frets, developing as much pinkie independence as possible, practicing clean noting, practicing slurs, etc.
Again, I'm unaware of any in-depth studies of any differences between players, genre, or anything like that.
*Also worthy to note that teaching or learning the "optimal" hand position also means that there are plenty of exceptions to that optimal position when making some chord forms ... adjustments have to be made to accommodate some chord shapes.
WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
----------------------------------
"Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN
----------------------------------
HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
- Advice For Mandolin Beginners
- YouTube Stuff
Here is the link to the Bickford Mandolin Method
https://ia800904.us.archive.org/0/it...olin01bick.pdf
Dan Scullin
Louisville, KY
Life is too short to read all that IMHO.
Dave H
Eastman 615 mandola
2011 Weber Bitteroot A5
2012 Weber Bitteroot F5
Eastman MD 915V
Gibson F9
2016 Capek ' Bob ' standard scale tenor banjo
Ibanez Artist 5 string
2001 Paul Shippey oval hole
www.stevetilston.com (double bass duties)
Well, I do respect your opinion.
I also seriously disagree with that approach to mandolin education.
The Bickford method is only 100 pages; yet is has a great deal of practical information on the mandolin, its playing techniques, basic music reading, and so on. One would need to read many other method books to learn what is contained in this book.
Pertinent to this thread, the book contains a great deal of information on the proper use of the left hand which applies to any style of mandolin playing past, present, and future.
Sure, the style of the method is somewhat old-fashioned...but so is the mandolin itself!
The OP did mention "classical" as one of the types of information that he was open to; the Bickford book has been a standard in mandolin study for over 100 years.
Life is too short NOT to avail oneself of such learning materials.
left hand? too many variables: (and FWIW, Maddie Witler teaches "left hand according to maddie witler" workshops)
- do you come from guitar and already play 1-finger-per-fret left hand? (choice - use same technique on mandolin or relearn to fiddle style 3-finger technique)
- do you intend to play octave mandolin and mandocello, eventually? (never say never again!)
- do you have very fat fingers and you can play one-finger x220 Em chord?
- do you have very long fingers and you can reach high-C no problem?
- do you want to eventually "play irish reels at 120 bpm"? (Susato Rondo Mon Ami at 60 bpm (youtube) and 112 bpm (dance speed) left hand technique is not same)
- are you in a one-mandolin-teacher town? (learn "their way or the high way")
Granted I haven’t seen every mandolin method the world has to offer, but of the couple dozen I have seen (including Bickford’s) I haven’t really seen a bad one. They each have their strengths. Bickford’s is hard to beat for a well-rounded introduction.
Not sure why Bill still hasn’t clarified what he’s looking for. I got the impression he may have been looking for comprehensive comparisons between various styles - of which, I haven’t seen - but I’m probably way off base there. Bill has checked back in on the thread, but hasn’t clarified exactly what he’s looking for. He’s been around the cafe a long time, it’s hard to believe he hasn’t come across the Bickford’s Method before now.
WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
----------------------------------
"Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN
----------------------------------
HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
- Advice For Mandolin Beginners
- YouTube Stuff
I asked this as I have looked at some good players and it seems to me many of them show an economy of motion that I am not able to replicate. Mike Compton, in particular. All good players look unhurried, but he moves his hand and fingers in a very compact manner. This may be Monroe style, but I can't find any real explanation of this beyond the fact that Monroe simplified melodies and picking to gain more speed.
I would like to see comparisons between different styles and an explanation of what characterizes those styles.
Bill
IM(NS)HO
Almost all fine mandolin players in ANY style have "unhurried" movements and "show an economy of motion ".
There may be some top players that are exceptions to this rule, but they play well in spite of their technique, not because of it.
I found a video that I'm sure Monroe fans have seen, but it shows his playing technique:
There's#very little wasted motion in either hand!
Let's look at the technique of another brilliant player, Dave Apollon - the video is not great but the playing is:
In this respect, mandolin is no different from any other stringed instrument. If you have the benefit of a classical background, you learn to play with economy from the outset. Every time you make an extraneous movement, your teacher stops you and corrects (at least mine did). It's rough going initially, but quickly becomes second nature. For every instrument I've studied, the biggest asset has been my classical background; simply apply same fundamentals that I learned as a youth, to each.
Rule #1 - Keep your fingers close to the fingerboard at all times. I see many, many players lift their fingers unnecessarily from the board, or take their hand away if using only first couple of fingers.. Albeit, mandolin technique permits you to do this, but certainly works against you if economy is your goal.
Tip - Scales. With arduous discipline.
Better yet, get a teacher and re-tool. This is the quickest, most effective way.
This is huge, or at least it has been for me. And it is amazing, as soon as you start keeping your fingers down, you notice other musicians' flying fingers.
In fact I find that it is often possible to keep fingers on the strings, depending on the tune and what is expected next. If it is a run going up and then down, I keep 'em on till I take them off. If it is every other note is the same note, maybe I can keep that finger down and pivot to catch the other notes. Little things like that, tune specific.
Violin players are especially good at this kind of thing I have found. Look at left hand videos of some violinists to get some ideas.
In fact you may find some violin books with extensive left hand instruction and examples, and exercises. It can all apply.
Ya there is a rule - keep your fingers on the strings, unless there is a reason to bring them off.
I'd initially put that down under 'Tips' (study a traditional stringed instrument, and transfer technique), but realized, this is no help if pedagogy/practice is lacking. The fingering discipline is the salient piece - no matter the instrument.
I think it may be the case that, simply, more violin/string players have had some formal pedagogy, while I'd bet that, comparatively, many mandolin players have not.
*I shouldn't have stipulated stringed instrument - same ergonomic principles apply to all - keyboards, horns, harps, what have you..
Last edited by catmandu2; May-15-2023 at 1:48pm.
left hand and right hand technique interact when playing fast - tradeoff between string crossing and shifting. do you play high E on the E string or on the A string, do you stay there for the F#, G and high A? obviously this will be different for each tune. for example, in Gm on mandocello, G to Bf on the D string is much closer than Bf in the A string. at some point one has to decide for oneself what they hate more, crossing strings or shifting. at slow speed it is all pretty much the same, but for some people slow is 60 bpm, while for others slow is 80 bpm or 100 bpm. like driving car, one has to be at peace with how fast they want to go, how fast they can go and how fast they will go today.
"keep fingers close!", the math and physics is very simple. consider a spherical mandolin in vacuum (joke). velocity = distance/time, time = distance/velocity, playing tempo = number of 8th notes/time = number of 8th notes * velocity / distance. assuming spherical fingers in vacuum move at constant velocity, just by lifting fingers half as high you will double the playing tempo (or you can move your fingers faster, and faster, and faster, hello, tendonitis, carpal tunnel, doctors, physiotherapy!).
mandolin setup is part if this equation. distance from string to fret is part of the finger movement equation, extra string height costs you time. string tension also comes into this, light low tension strings take less effort to move and so will move faster compared to heavy high tension strings (or you can push harder, hello, big calluses, tendonitis and other fun!).
Thanks for clarifying, Bill. I agree with David, most all good players in any genre display economy of motion, and as Cat wrote, a classical education generally teaches techniques for this from the outset. Self-taught folkies have to learn it any way they can, but it definitely needs to be given time and thought and practice in a good practice regimen. Although I’ve been unable to keep my pinky over the strings, for me, it means practicing to keep my fingers down on a note anywhere that it’s practical in a tune.
For instance, if I notice that I’ll be returning to a note on the A or D string after moving to the open A or E string, I practice holding that note and allowing it to ring until I return to it. That’s an example that’s easier to demonstrate than explain. But in most tunes, solos, etc. there are plenty of places where you can hold a note or two, only releasing it when absolutely necessary. Practicing this is one way to help with economy of motion and adds a dimension to your sound as well.
WWW.THEAMATEURMANDOLINIST.COM
----------------------------------
"Life is short. Play hard." - AlanN
----------------------------------
HEY! The Cafe has Social Groups, check 'em out. I'm in these groups:
Newbies Social Group | The Song-A-Week Social
The Woodshed Study Group | Blues Mando
- Advice For Mandolin Beginners
- YouTube Stuff
Right, the 'classical' pedagogic model is a highly codified system - based on technical mastery - so you know what you're going to get out of that approach. So, when seeking tuition (outside of the 'classical' model), you have to assess your teacher to determine what it is they will be disseminating and reinforcing. You could be learning from someone who doesn't use their pinky, or whatever, for example. This could be fine, depending on what the student wants. This is why the tradition of starting kids out early with optimal technique is typically deemed 'best practices." From my perspective, it is. We all hear the 'horror stories' of the traumas induced by this approach (my choir teacher could kill, we were all sure) - it all depends on the individual to assess ultimate efficacy of their tuition.
I took violin lessons for only a short time. One of the most useful take-away's for me was that by keeping your finger(s) on the strings whenever you can and for as long as you can (within the requirements of the music), you are always oriented to the fingerboard so that you always know where to reach the next note. This works for mandolin as well. This helps you to walk over the fingerboard instead of punching it.
That old book was actually pretty cool and worth a look. Some of the left hand things it touches on are similar in violin lessons (obviously you don't hold it the same).
I took violin lessons recently and found I learned some useful things that could cross over to mandolin. I think it helps to be shown them in person though. Reading about them doesn't always work because you don't get feedback and your mind can skip important things if you don't understand them immediately from a book.
Also, I took Irish fiddle lessons after the classical violin lessons and he stressed the same left hand techniques. It's the right hand techniques that differ. I would bet mando techniques are the same.
One of the best mando players I've ever seen is Ashley Broder who mixes classical, Irish and American styles. It's obvious that to play with her level of skill and her speed takes the kind of mastery you get from a solid base.
There really is no substitute for 1:1 teacher/coach when drilling fundamentals. As you say, you need that immediate feedback and correction. To train the hands/fingers this way, teacher stops and corrects as soon as any extraneous movement is made - which occurs immediately, and thereafter. I remember this - sitting there feeling like I was in a body cast, unable to move, except in the prescribed manner. It's brutal, but very effective. You play the first note, and teacher says, "Stop." You make the correction, begin again, and teacher says, "Stop.' Ad Infinitum. This goes on until the body conforms. I don't know how one would accomplish this without the 1:1 scrutiny. It's definitely not fun, but very effective. One could use mirrors and other feedback methods, but we're talking super duper diligence - you just can't be as brutal with yourself as the teacher/coach in this method.
I get all the suggestions as to technique and appreciate them.
What I would like to see is some explanation of methodology, of how different players approach various songs. How they determine where and how to fret the notes in the melody. How they approach changes in octave.
It seems to me there are more than one school of thought on this. For instance, what I've read of Monroe, he sought to minimize and simplify melodies to allow for more speed. I am sure there is more to it that this, but that is one thing I've read. How do you simplify a melody? I'd like to see some discussion of this.
Other players seem to make melodies more complex to enrich their songs. How is this done while still preserving speed?
I guess, in general, I am seeking guidance on various ways to develop ones own interpretation of a song.
Bill
IM(NS)HO
Actually the Bickford method has three other volumes so it is really over 400 pages. But all of it is worthwhile. All the old methods and probably most of the new mandolin methods—at least the classical based ones—drew largely from the classic violin methods including etudes and exercises.
Jim
My Stream on Soundcloud
19th Century Tunes
Playing lately:
1924 Gibson A4 - 2018 Campanella A-5 - 2007 Brentrup A4C - 1915 Frank Merwin Ashley violin - Huss & Dalton DS - 1923 Gibson A2 black snakehead - '83 Flatiron A5-2 - 1939 Gibson L-00 - 1936 Epiphone Deluxe - 1928 Gibson L-5 - ca. 1890s Fairbanks Senator Banjo - ca. 1923 Vega Style M tenor banjo - ca. 1920 Weymann Style 25 Mandolin-Banjo - National RM-1
Thanks, and yes there are 4 Bickford books, but I think only book one is available as a free pdf.
https://ia800904.us.archive.org/0/it...olin01bick.pdf
Book 1
https://www.djangobooks.com/Item/Bickford2
https://www.djangobooks.com/Item/bic...ethod-volume-3
https://www.djangobooks.com/Item/bic...ethod-volume-4
Django Books has vol. 2-4
Aslo mandolin methods are available from several sources including
https://www.mandoisland.de/eng_index.html
click on Mandolin Methods on the sidebar.
Bookmarks