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Thread: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

  1. #1

    Default Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    I know--we sort of cover this every so often. More questions:

    I understand:
    1) So much of tone comes from the player, pick, angle, attack, etc.
    2) Everyone's ears are different. My high end hearing is going -- when I have the music high, my wife says it's "shrill" and when she has it on, it often seems dull to me. So when someone says: "This mandolin sounds great!" I take that into consideration.
    3) Every piece of wood is different and even twin models might sound different.

    BUT -- there are some objective issues (besides shape of neck, width of nut, etc.)

    These include some things which can be measured:
    4) Overall loudness
    5) Loudness at low, middle and high frequencies shape the sound (of course it depends on where you draw the line on low, medium & hgh))
    6) Sustain at each of the three (or more) frequencies
    7) Overtones -- do the low notes have an overtone? Do the mids? Do the high notes, or do they ring out in a "CHINGING" sort of way?
    8) Or is the combination of sustain and overtones more like a smooth electric jazz guitar where the "pure note" comes out?

    So yeah, I've thought about this a lot. Especially looking at the 1300-2500 range. Where preowned Flatirons, Gibson A/F9's and Northfields live.

    My understanding that "drier" tone (Gibsons and maybe some Flatirons with parallel tone bars) means there are fewer overtones and less sustain, especially on the high strings, while Northfields have more of a rounded sound, a little more sustain and more overtones but not overwhelming. Maybe preferable for some folk, maybe (or not) some jazz....

    So am I in the ball park?

    Also, I'm wondering if one can use the fretting hand to slightly damp the strings to minimize the sustain and overtones, such that a Northfield might be capable of a "drier" sound.

    Well, I had some time to kill, so I thought I'd toss this out!

    Good evening all!

  2. #2
    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    When you are in the driverīs seat you hear the instrument entirely different than your audience. Keep that in mind. Depending my choice of music I would also entertain the thought of playing a vintage oval hole Gibson (snakehead Ajr for example). The more you play the more you will find out which sound pleases you the most.

    Loudness is not necessarily a feature that Iīd look for. I am more interested in "carrying power". An instrument may seem quiet but carries the sound far. An instrument that may seem loud (and obnoxiously so) may carry the sound only so far. I have experienced this with guitars, banjos and mandolins. My quite expensive guitar sounds nice anywhere you go but it fills the room like a good stereo system. Play it quietly and it still fills the room.

    Concerning overtones, the more jingle jangle you want you should focus on oval hole instruments.
    Olaf

  3. #3

    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    The A9s and F9s I've played have tended towards the drier side but in my experience most modern Gibsons and Flatirons are not that far on the dry side like the vintage F5s. They tend to have some overtones and to be reasonably balanced. Same goes for the Northfields I have played. I wouldn't put them in the "have lots of overtones" camp, with the exception of the 5 bar Artist Series which was going for that. They are also pretty down the middle and well balanced, certainly capable of a drier type sound.

    As far as the things you describe as being objective, most of those features are based off of people's subjective opinions. People are not setting up scientific studies to compare these features and if they are not the mind will often do what it does. (As with my observations above)

    Regarding getting different tones out of your mandolin, where you play in proximity to the bridge (closer to the bridge, in the middle, over fingerboard) can impact your tone significantly. Playing closer to the bridge will give less sustain and more of a biting attack while over the fingerboard tends to be rounder and sweeter. Additionally, pick angle whether you are playing with the pick flat on the strings or at an angle will have impact on the tone you are producing.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    Grassroots --- I have a wonderful 1917
    Gibson A 1 that I got back in 1979. (Has it been 40 plus years?). Had a new bridge put on by Elderly way back then. Playing it slow and medium speed is one of the most wonderful sounds on this Earth..... I continue to be amazed at the relatively low prices that these command on the market given how great the sound is.

    I also have a THE Loar 400 ...f hole, "drier"? sound and pretty good for the money after it's set up but I was looking to jump up from there to a preowned Gibson a9/f9 or Flat iron or Northfield because on my old Gibson oval hole, if one plays it very fast, sometimes the sustain and overtones do interfere with the following notes. (Of course I don't play it very very fast.. after 40 years I'm still not that good!). I also understand and appreciate the comment about all instruments.. possibly especially mandolins.. sounding much different to the person holding it as opposed to the person in front of it.

    Thanks for the comments. Every time I see a pumpkin colored 100-year-old Gibson with 100-year-old wood, selling for less than $16/1700... I'm ready to buy it.. but my wife says I only have two hands. But upgrading from the factory built THE LOAR mandolin I think would be a good move.

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    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    Another thing to consider with Northfield is the top wood used. Red spruce vs Engleman can make a difference in the fundamental tonal differences you’re considering…
    Last edited by CES; Mar-22-2023 at 6:27pm.
    Chuck

  6. #6

    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    Chuck --- in what way?


    Thx

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    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    It kind of depends mandolin to mandolin. Red spruce tends to have a drier, more traditional, and more powerful straight ahead bluegrass type of tone. Engleman is a little more nuanced, a little sweeter, but maybe lacking some of the raw power. Neither is necessarily better, just different. And there are more than a couple of builders on here who would likely tell me that what they do with the wood matters more than the type itself. Get lost in YouTube for a few minutes with good headphones or speakers and listen to some Northfield model comparisons, and you’ll hear what I’m trying to describe much better than I’m describing it…
    Chuck

  8. #8
    Registered User grassrootphilosopher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Spector View Post
    Grassroots --- I have a wonderful 1917
    Gibson A 1 that I got back in 1979. (Has it been 40 plus years?). Had a new bridge put on by Elderly way back then. Playing it slow and medium speed is one of the most wonderful sounds on this Earth..... I continue to be amazed at the relatively low prices that these command on the market given how great the sound is.

    I also have a THE Loar 400 ...f hole, "drier"? sound and pretty good for the money after it's set up but I was looking to jump up from there to a preowned Gibson a9/f9 or Flat iron or Northfield because on my old Gibson oval hole, if one plays it very fast, sometimes the sustain and overtones do interfere with the following notes. (Of course I don't play it very very fast.. after 40 years I'm still not that good!). I also understand and appreciate the comment about all instruments.. possibly especially mandolins.. sounding much different to the person holding it as opposed to the person in front of it.

    Thanks for the comments. Every time I see a pumpkin colored 100-year-old Gibson with 100-year-old wood, selling for less than $16/1700... I'm ready to buy it.. but my wife says I only have two hands. But upgrading from the factory built THE LOAR mandolin I think would be a good move.
    Your post shows that you are allready settled in a certain department. So you only look for something different in a certain price range. Given the fact that you allready know vintage tone and obviously like it I would concentrate on the most/closest vintage f-hole sound that you can get in your price range.

    A vintage f-hole sound to me is a sound with a lot quicker decay less "jingle" than the a-hole sound and a sound that is more "stringy".

    If I look at F/A-9 or F-5G Gibson mandolins I find that they are closer to "The Loar" mandolins than to a desirable sound. There is nothing wrong with those instruments. But the sound is a little muffled, with no overtones to speak about and a somewhat dull percussive sound to the mandolin. But if you want to take a step up and if you would want to consider a Gibson mandolin, you are in deep waters as I would only consider an F-5 Master Model or a Distressed Master Model. Those set you back five figures (and there are options out there with at least an equal sound for a lot less money).

    Flatirons (made before and under Gibson tenure) are quite allright (for the price). I remember playing Flatirons back to back with Gibsons at the Musikmesse in Frankfurt a long time back. Back then I preferred the Flatiron F-5 over the Gibson F-5L. Having tried out a number of them in the past I would put them above A/F-9 and F-5G mandolins. But they too lack a certain something to my ears.

    I do think that Northfields live up to their hype. But they are - if I am not mistaken - priced quite a bit higher than Flatirons and Gibsons A/F-9s and F-5Gs. And - as I found out playing them and talking to their owners - they are not all the same. So you probably would have to play a bunch before you settle on what you like.

    I admit that I am spoiled. My first mandolin is still a mainstay of mine that I never fail to boast about. It is my wonderful 30ies Strad-O-Lin (with comma f-holes). It sometimes is a b*tch to tune, has some intonation issues that I can live with but it has a vintage sound to die for, volume for days and the funky otherwoldly appearance. No wonder my son loves it (and prefers it over my expensive F-5 style mando). Only because the grass is allways greener on the other side did I buy my other, my expensive and very wonderful F-5 style mandolin. It sounds as close to a Lloyd Loar mandolin as you can get without paying over 150 k more. I settled on the maker after having had him recomended by my dear departed picking friend and after I was in a jam session with some of Europeīs premier mandolin players who played Nugget and Gilchrist mandolins back to back with me on my Strad and a well known mandolinist with this makerīs mandolin. After swapping back and forth and me trying out their instruments to my heartīs delight. Buying my expensive F-5 was a perfectly sound choice. I have been given compliments about it even though after playing a Lloyd Loar F-5 I found out that that kind of instrument is an etirely different beast yet.

    All of this goes to show that it is not a simple choice to "take the next step up". If I were in the market, I would try to find a Brentrup A-5, Stanley A-5, Old Wave (Bill Bussman), Hilburn etc. and of course (if you can get it) a 30ies Strad-O-Lin (with comma f-holes) all of which are american made. If you widen the interest you can also check for Vanden, Richter (German and a fine builder/repairman) etc.
    Olaf

  9. #9
    Gummy Bears and Scotch BrianWilliam's Avatar
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    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    Another perspective: an A9 would be a huge upgrade from the LM400.

    Will it be as refined as a 10x upgrade? No and you may upgrade down the line. But still, it would be a worthwhile investment on your mandolin journey.


  10. #10

    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    I agree with that sentiment about an A9. Honestly, I wouldn't get too much in the weeds here. All of these are going to be fundamentally more focused then the Gibson oval. They all sit in the range of a bluegrass style mandolin by design and all should be a big upgrade form the Loar. Sure they differ from instrument to instrument and ideally you would be able to try it out and make sure it is something you like or in the very least hear soundclips of the instrument.

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    Default Re: Once again (sigh!) on "tone" --Gibson, Flatiron & Northfield

    I think for an upgrade to a Loar 400 you don't need to stay in the Gibson, Flat Iron, Northfield lanes.

    Certainly those brands are very prevalent (except maybe Flat Iron not so much)
    If you are looking for drier less ringy tone - F holes will help ( A style with F, scroll optional)
    and certainly Adirondack spruce top with a maple body leans that way, varnish tends to be drier ( IMHO) than lacquer

    The Northfield's I've heard that I liked seemed to lean on the Fat side tone wise, less dry than Gibson or Flat Iron.

    I am big Weber fan but a used Collings MT might be nice upgrade, there seems to be plenty available, I have not played a dud Collings yet .
    Strings and the pick do make a difference, I always liked PB for dry, but the monels might be what you are looking for.

    always excited to contemplate a new mandolin!
    Stormy Morning Orchestra

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