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Thread: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

  1. #51
    Registered User lowtone2's Avatar
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by acharman View Post
    Yes tastes vary. I am not a fan of traditional old-fashioned bluegrass but I do like some bluegrass adjacent or bluegrass influenced music. So I'm interested in sampling some contemporary bluegrass or developments from bluegrass to see whether any of that appeals and to see what common licks, phrases, approaches etc may be useful to me. Some of the suggestions above that I've listened to have been good - others a bit too Monroeish. Some of the current players may well have based their playing on Monroe but those that are copying that too closely are not likely to appeal to me. Modern players should be better for me to get inspiration from as they will already have assimilated the playing of Monroe and others and hopefully then added something of themselves. I'm sorry for all the Monroe worshippers but I don't like his playing nor do I like the undue influence he has held over the mandolin world. Yes he (and Scruggs and others who were arguably just as important in creating the sound) developed on music that came before them to create a new sound which does give him an important place in history. But if it is effectively a dead genre that has to do things in the same way or it "ain't no part of nothin" then I'm just not interested. So I am interested to hear where some contemporary payers may have been able to take the genre kicking and screaming against the gatekeepers.

    Hopefully, one day you'll be able to appreciate both the young innovators and the old innovators. Regardless of attitudes, or ages, or whether they are stylish, the music is the important thing, right? A lot of us hang on to the music of the first generation and subsequent revivals because of its soul and power. Not because we're anti-change.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    My favorite is Milkdrive.
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by acharman View Post
    Yes tastes vary. I am not a fan of traditional old-fashioned bluegrass but I do like some bluegrass adjacent or bluegrass influenced music. So I'm interested in sampling some contemporary bluegrass or developments from bluegrass to see whether any of that appeals and to see what common licks, phrases, approaches etc may be useful to me. Some of the suggestions above that I've listened to have been good - others a bit too Monroeish. Some of the current players may well have based their playing on Monroe but those that are copying that too closely are not likely to appeal to me. Modern players should be better for me to get inspiration from as they will already have assimilated the playing of Monroe and others and hopefully then added something of themselves. I'm sorry for all the Monroe worshippers but I don't like his playing nor do I like the undue influence he has held over the mandolin world. Yes he (and Scruggs and others who were arguably just as important in creating the sound) developed on music that came before them to create a new sound which does give him an important place in history. But if it is effectively a dead genre that has to do things in the same way or it "ain't no part of nothin" then I'm just not interested. So I am interested to hear where some contemporary payers may have been able to take the genre kicking and screaming against the gatekeepers.

  4. #54
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Ach...

    No, acharman´s opinion is not offensive.

    First, he didn´t say that bluegrass is a dead genre. He opposes a genre to become stagnant. And I think that it staying fresh is a pretty high goal to achieve.

    He also says that he does not like Monroe´s playing and that Monroe holds an undue influence over the mandolin world.

    Let´s take the second statement. It is simply wrong. Monroe may hold an influence over the bluegrass mandolin world. But the mandolin world - I would say - is mostly classicaly influenced. At least this is what I think. But it does not matter. If Monroe indeed held an influence over the mandolin world I would not call it undue. I think that Monroe serves as a light beacon that can show you where to or where not to go. If you don´t like his playing, play differently.

    The first statement - a dislike of Monroe´s mandolin playing - is simply a question of taste. Have you ever been in the Musée D´Orsay or the Washington National Gallery of Art? Have you seen the Monet painting of the Rouen cathedral? If you go close all you see is dots. If you fall back the painting is a marvellous picture of the Rouen cathedral that inspires you. This is the way I see Monroe´s mandolin playing. It is a technique all of its own. It is practically impossible to copy (like Tony Rice´s guitar playing). Yet it is so inspiring that you will allways find something new in it. If you try to copy Monroe´s playing (let´s say you try to play a tune note for note from a recording) you will find many finger buster things that show plain genious musicianship. But it may not please your ears, just as Monet´s cathedral may not please you as a picture. So what. There are people that preferr Jaques-Louis David over Francisco Goya. So be it.

    To me the mandolin in bluegrass plays a role in a band. It cannot be detached from it and viewed as a singular instrument. If you like a musicaly modern approach to bluegrass in a mandolin you cannot put this mandolin in a strictly traditional band. The mandolin wil appear as a foreign objekt in that band. So quite obviously it is necessary to put together a bluegrass band (or a classical string quintet, or a rock band etc.) where the roles are assigned so that the musical outcome will be pleasing.

    That means, you have to know your role. You cannot play bluegrass without knowing Bill Monroe mandolin stylistics. You can play in a band with a banjo, fiddle, bass and guitar with your mandolin doing all kinds of music (listen to the Punch Brothers). That´s highly trained music, yet no bluegrass (most of the time).

    In the end it´s about learning the instrument and applying the knowledge to the best of your abilities in the style of music that you like to play.
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    I have been really enjoying East Nash Grass. Harry Clark plays the fire out of his Gilchrist and the whole band is top notch.
    I laid the tracks, never rode the train.

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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    Ach...

    No, acharman´s opinion is not offensive.

    First, he didn´t say that bluegrass is a dead genre. He opposes a genre to become stagnant. And I think that it staying fresh is a pretty high goal to achieve.

    He also says that he does not like Monroe´s playing and that Monroe holds an undue influence over the mandolin world.

    Let´s take the second statement. It is simply wrong. Monroe may hold an influence over the bluegrass mandolin world. But the mandolin world - I would say - is mostly classicaly influenced. At least this is what I think. But it does not matter. If Monroe indeed held an influence over the mandolin world I would not call it undue. I think that Monroe serves as a light beacon that can show you where to or where not to go. If you don´t like his playing, play differently.

    The first statement - a dislike of Monroe´s mandolin playing - is simply a question of taste. Have you ever been in the Musée D´Orsay or the Washington National Gallery of Art? Have you seen the Monet painting of the Rouen cathedral? If you go close all you see is dots. If you fall back the painting is a marvellous picture of the Rouen cathedral that inspires you. This is the way I see Monroe´s mandolin playing. It is a technique all of its own. It is practically impossible to copy (like Tony Rice´s guitar playing). Yet it is so inspiring that you will allways find something new in it. If you try to copy Monroe´s playing (let´s say you try to play a tune note for note from a recording) you will find many finger buster things that show plain genious musicianship. But it may not please your ears, just as Monet´s cathedral may not please you as a picture. So what. There are people that preferr Jaques-Louis David over Francisco Goya. So be it.

    To me the mandolin in bluegrass plays a role in a band. It cannot be detached from it and viewed as a singular instrument. If you like a musicaly modern approach to bluegrass in a mandolin you cannot put this mandolin in a strictly traditional band. The mandolin wil appear as a foreign objekt in that band. So quite obviously it is necessary to put together a bluegrass band (or a classical string quintet, or a rock band etc.) where the roles are assigned so that the musical outcome will be pleasing.

    That means, you have to know your role. You cannot play bluegrass without knowing Bill Monroe mandolin stylistics. You can play in a band with a banjo, fiddle, bass and guitar with your mandolin doing all kinds of music (listen to the Punch Brothers). That´s highly trained music, yet no bluegrass (most of the time).

    In the end it´s about learning the instrument and applying the knowledge to the best of your abilities in the style of music that you like to play.
    bro... it's a joke...

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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by grassrootphilosopher View Post
    Ach...

    No, acharman´s opinion is not offensive.

    First, he didn´t say that bluegrass is a dead genre. He opposes a genre to become stagnant. And I think that it staying fresh is a pretty high goal to achieve.

    He also says that he does not like Monroe´s playing and that Monroe holds an undue influence over the mandolin world.

    Let´s take the second statement. It is simply wrong. Monroe may hold an influence over the bluegrass mandolin world. But the mandolin world - I would say - is mostly classicaly influenced. At least this is what I think. But it does not matter. If Monroe indeed held an influence over the mandolin world I would not call it undue. I think that Monroe serves as a light beacon that can show you where to or where not to go. If you don´t like his playing, play differently.
    Monroe holds an influence but only in Bluegrass, American Folk music, and American Country music in that order, however I don't think it is "undo".
    I don't think He has much influence in Italian or German classical or folk music, Latin Jazz, Eastern European, traditional Irish ( although many of the Irish players will give a nod to Bill), Rock music ( the solo to Maggie May is not what I would call Monroe style).
    I had never heard of Bill Monroe when I first started mandolin, and knew even less about his music and style of playing.
    I really did not start appreciating Monroe until about 10 years or so into mandolin playing, and even then it was a slow process.
    To that point my playing is not really Monroe centric at all, and after a recent mandolin camp, watching how much effort people put into "replicating" Monroe's style, I decided it was not for me, and while I enjoy playing his tunes ( there are gobs of them), I am not interested in trying to mimic his style at all.
    I think Bill's intent was to "Not be ignored" and he was successful in making sure we would remember his name.

    Players like Jesse McReynolds, Norman Blake, Peter Ostroushko, Mike Marshall, John Reischman, even David Grisman, Chris Thile and Sierra Hull to large extent do not play Monroe style (exclusively) anyway.
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by tmsweeney View Post
    I think Bill's intent was to "Not be ignored" and he was successful in making sure we would remember his name.
    Wow I love that.
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  11. #59

    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    I put some suggestions on the first page, but adding a couple here:

    Mountain Grass Unit: a very young trio, played mostly covers but had a couple of originals. I had hear OF them before, but only got to see them at a Festival in early July. Very good, will follow them as they grow.

    Molly Tuttle and Golden Highway is a terrific band and have their second album, City of Gold out today. This one was recorded with the current band, unlike the first album which was mostly studio musicians I believe. They are terrific live and Dominick Leslie is terrific on mandolin. Maybe mentioned earlier in the thread but I didn't see them.

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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    I think when I wrote that I had been coming across too much Monroe worship in various forums along with gatekeeping including using "ain't no part of nothin" to shut down other people's views or people criticising artists because they strayed in some way from what Bill would have done. No Monroe doesn't have much direct influence thankfully on some other styles but in some FB groups and other forums mandolin = bluegrass = Monroe style and you have to have a burst F5 that can chop. The comments and opinions I was reading was almost indicating that bluegrass = Monroe approved style only and therefore fairly much a stagnant genre.

    So I was interested in seeing what else was out there that wasn't bound by the Monroe bluegrass gatekeeping. There were some good suggestions given, though many still just too much of the traditional influence on them for my taste. I guess I'm just not going to develop a taste for bluegrass any time soon but some of the modern bluegrass adjacent artists have some appeal.

    I guess one of the broader influences on mandolin from Monroe and bluegrass more generally that sometimes irritates me is the straight copies of one builder's designs being the main commercially available instruments. This is complete with blatantly ripping off design ideas including poor designs like the ugly F5 headstock that has a weak point inherent in its design. I wish Gibson had protected their mandolin headstock design as vigorously as they have their guitar headstock.

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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by acharman View Post
    the ugly F5 headstock
    Hmmmm. When I first saw an F style body I really was like huh?

    But I have grown to love it. More from a historical perspective - the throw back to the art deco and art nouveau influence on every day objects, design elements we rarely see these days. The world is far to efficient and functional in areas where it is not important. A good enthusiastic curley extension is a hoot. An element of fun that has become tradition.

    But I do get it. At first glance I remember thinking who are you actually kidding? A silhouette of a big nosed guy with a cowlick, a curly point to jab you in the leg, what the huh?
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    Hmmmm. When I first saw an F style body I really was like huh?

    But I have grown to love it. More from a historical perspective - the throw back to the art deco and art nouveau influence on every day objects, design elements we rarely see these days. The world is far to efficient and functional in areas where it is not important. A good enthusiastic curley extension is a hoot. An element of fun that has become tradition.

    But I do get it. At first glance I remember thinking who are you actually kidding? A silhouette of a big nosed guy with a cowlick, a curly point to jab you in the leg, what the huh?
    Yes I get the historical bit and except for the poor functionality of the weak point of the scroll was an interesting design by one builder in its time. I don’t get why even some quality builders just do blatant copies including the flowerpot, headstock shape and font style and even put “the” in front of their name as another ripoff of “the Gibson”. Even if luthiers or companies are doing straight copies of the body shape because it’s traditional and that’s what sells I wish they would at least put their own design to the headstock shape, logo and inlays instead of just being Gibson clones. But I guess it’s just what sells so I can understand builders just sticking with the safety of yet another F5 copy with a burst finish and a flowerpot or fern inlay. I’d love to see more interesting, innovative body and headstock designs or at least more variation. It might be different in other countries but it is hard to find anything but Gibson A or F copies here. Two or 3 point shapes are hard to come by and excluding luthier builds basic flattops are the only other style.

  16. #63

    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Some of my favorite non traditional BG:
    John Reischman
    Hawktail
    Cahalen Morrison and Eli West
    Yonder Mountain String Band
    Crooked Still
    Milkdrive

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    harvester of clams Bill McCall's Avatar
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by acharman View Post
    Yes I get the historical bit and except for the poor functionality of the weak point of the scroll was an interesting design by one builder in its time. I don’t get why even some quality builders just do blatant copies including the flowerpot, headstock shape and font style and even put “the” in front of their name as another ripoff of “the Gibson”. Even if luthiers or companies are doing straight copies of the body shape because it’s traditional and that’s what sells I wish they would at least put their own design to the headstock shape, logo and inlays instead of just being Gibson clones. But I guess it’s just what sells so I can understand builders just sticking with the safety of yet another F5 copy with a burst finish and a flowerpot or fern inlay. I’d love to see more interesting, innovative body and headstock designs or at least more variation. It might be different in other countries but it is hard to find anything but Gibson A or F copies here. Two or 3 point shapes are hard to come by and excluding luthier builds basic flattops are the only other style.
    Interesting. Why should mandolins be different as a class of instruments than violins, trumpets, etc? Do you despair the lack of clarinet or trombone innovation?
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  19. #65
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill McCall View Post
    Interesting. Why should mandolins be different as a class of instruments than violins, trumpets, etc? Do you despair the lack of clarinet or trombone innovation?
    I don’t know clarinets, trombones etc to know whether there are design flaws kept purely because of tradition. Also those orchestral instruments have a lot of pressure to be very similar. They do not have the wide range of designs that mandolins, guitars etc do. So should all mandolins be bowlback Neapolitan because we don’t need innovation? Gibson’s innovations were welcome but do we need to freeze development and innovation in the 1920s?

    The F style mandolin is far from the only style of mandolin and is also nowhere near the original. From the many different designs (arched top, flattop, canted top, bowlback, f-hole, oval hole etc) all I generally see available in Australia without going to luthiers are F and A with possible lower end flattops. I find 2 or 3 point, either symmetrical or asymmetrical far more attractive than Fs. I know the market for mandolins is far smaller than guitars so there isn’t the commercial incentive to provide a range.

    I come more from guitar where although there are a lot of straight copies, mainly of Martin, even they don’t replicate headstocks, inlays and other design features that should be representing the maker. Gibson have been far more vigorous in defence of their guitar headstock which is far less distinctive than their F mandolin. Of course they do seem to have an issue with headstocks that have weak points with Gibson style guitars more prone to breakage than others. I find the Gibson F headstock ugly (yes that is personal taste) but it also has the poor design issue of the scroll being attached by a short section that is prone to breakage.

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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by acharman View Post
    I don’t know clarinets, trombones etc to know whether there are design flaws kept purely because of tradition. Also those orchestral instruments have a lot of pressure to be very similar. They do not have the wide range of designs that mandolins, guitars etc do. So should all mandolins be bowlback Neapolitan because we don’t need innovation? Gibson’s innovations were welcome but do we need to freeze development and innovation in the 1920s?

    The F style mandolin is far from the only style of mandolin and is also nowhere near the original. From the many different designs (arched top, flattop, canted top, bowlback, f-hole, oval hole etc) all I generally see available in Australia without going to luthiers are F and A with possible lower end flattops. I find 2 or 3 point, either symmetrical or asymmetrical far more attractive than Fs. I know the market for mandolins is far smaller than guitars so there isn’t the commercial incentive to provide a range.

    I come more from guitar where although there are a lot of straight copies, mainly of Martin, even they don’t replicate headstocks, inlays and other design features that should be representing the maker. Gibson have been far more vigorous in defence of their guitar headstock which is far less distinctive than their F mandolin. Of course they do seem to have an issue with headstocks that have weak points with Gibson style guitars more prone to breakage than others. I find the Gibson F headstock ugly (yes that is personal taste) but it also has the poor design issue of the scroll being attached by a short section that is prone to breakage.
    About the instrument: I would assume that most of us are more concerned with the inside of the instrument, the bracing, top graduation etc., its power, balance, etc. than with the its looks. In my short BG period, over 50 years ago, my mandolin was a blonde Levin Aristokrat with bound soundholes and two points (they were often referred to as "horns"), really comfortable when playing seated, which I prefer yet today. That's the mandolin I brought on my first and last trip to the US in 1969, and to the three festivals I attended. I took part in many parkinglot jams, but also in more private settings. No one commented on the looks of the instrument, its relevance in a BG context. When arriving in Washington it was in desperate need of a neckset so I brought it to John Duffey's repair shop in Arlington to have it fixed. He of course did not comment on its body shape, but looked inside in an inspection mirror and did remark on the unusual bracing. He did a wonderful job. Several days later I met him at a party in Silver Spring. Maryland where I jammed with, among others, Bill Emerson, Cliff Waldron, and Tom Gray. Duffey didn't take part in the jamming, but sat in the kitchen talking with the host and hostess. But he did comment on my nice little mandolin, how he'd enjoyed working on it

    Since then I've owned an A5 Flatiron and a Lyon&Healy--inspired ovalhole which I've donated to, hopefully, a worthy cause. The ovalhole, built of Swiss woods in Switzerland, compares really favorably to the several Gibson F2's and F4's that I´ve tried but in the long run I found my Collings F5 copy better suited to my needs. I bought it in 2004 after selling some shares at a substantial profit. Without that money I would gladly have stuck with the Flatiron.

    Then, what's the attraction in the F5 (or A5) design? It seems to me that the combination of carved top, f-holes, long neck (in contrast to the F7 and F12 designs) allowing optimal placement of the bridge, is ideal for the increasing use of the mandolin as a rhythm instrument in several genres (BG, choro, jazz, New Acoustic). At least I see no other reason to pefer it over ovalholes.

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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Labels. You’ve submitted several posts on a subforum devoted to Bluegrass, expressing your distaste of the genre. So what, then really is BG and when is it “modern” or “non-traditional” and not just something else?

    There are an overwhelming number of suggestions in this thread and in most cases I wonder where the BG connection is.

    Some examples are good, very good, and even exceptional, music, many of them defying categorization, in a pleasing way. Others are genuine head.scratchers, such as one with a singer without voice, delivering songs without melody. So let’s concentrate on the really good examples.

    One is Twisted Pine’s rendition of Come Along Jody. It was written by a BG/Old-time fiddler, to be sure,
    but the treatment has virtually no connection with BG. The flautist and violinist are exceptionally good improvisers, exhibiting the rhythmic freedom and inventiveness — even on a simple harmonic foundation —
    for which the only *possible* label is jazz. (They even trade fours at the end of the blowing section, a common device in jazz since the 50’s.)

    Another is the Telluride Sessions with Strength in Numbers, which largely is a play with genres and stylistic clichés. Lochs of Dread combines reggae and jig, and Blue Men of the Sahara positively revels in almost parodical orientalisms. Other numbers seem to create, and finish, their own genres.

    Out of the four examples you give it can certainly be said that they expand on their previous BG experience in various ways, with the possible exception of Chris Thile. He still is an exceptional improviser capable of a rhythmic phrasing that seems to defy gravity, but I lost him after his 3rd CD. And his best work really is not as a leader, but as a sideman on Mark O’Connor’s 30-year Retrospective, where O’Connor achieves cohesion by filtering his stylistically varied output through four individual temperaments.

    I’ll let that double-CD be my only contribution because there is so much to absorb, and learn from it, and because it so neatly sums up my aversion to labels, and my attraction to music that resists cheap labeling. Which I think is what you really should be looking for.

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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by acharman View Post
    I’d love to see more interesting, innovative body and headstock designs or at least more variation. .
    I have had the impression that, while certain designs dominate the popular imagination, there is more variability in types and styles of mandolin than guitars.

    You have a point about the inherent weakness of a typical f style headstock.

    But I guess it’s just what sells so I can understand builders just sticking with the safety of yet another F5 copy with a burst finish and a flowerpot or fern inlay.
    I have had it explained, i other industries fighting innovation "A pioneer is a fella face down in the mud with an arrow in his back."
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    Default Re: seeking modern bluegrass suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandomax View Post
    I have been really enjoying East Nash Grass. Harry Clark plays the fire out of his Gilchrist and the whole band is top notch.
    That guy is a monster!

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