I want to do an economic study of the careers of luthiers

[Alan_Seals]

Hello Everyone:

My name is Alan Seals and I am a labor economist and an amateur musician. A lot of people in my field are interested in technology and its effects on labor market outcomes (e.g., wages, occupational choice, etc.). With the diffusion of robotics, AI and other higher end automation technologies, we are likely in the beginning of a disruptive period. These innovations will likely bring about a lot more wealth, as well as social/political problems.

I am sitting at a computer now but behind me are several hand made instruments (like my Stiver Model F!). I think demand for these kinds of instruments will increase, as people look for the human touch in their consumption items that their newfound wealth as a robot overlord will afford. But the production process and designs for the most favored stringed instruments haven't changed a whole lot over time.

I, along with my colleague John Nunley who is also an economist, want to create a comprehensive data set of all the information I can find on luthiers (violin, mandolin, guitar, resonator guitars, etc.), both alive and dead. We are also interested in larger companies like Collings and National Resophonic. At some point, I would want to collect information on parts and accessories makers and suppliers. My plan is to (use a computer to automate automate a process to) scour documents, books, websites for information on the lives (and lives of the instruments) of every luthier I can find: 1) birthplaces, other residences, travel 2) birthdates, marriage dates etc. 3) educational attainment and apprenticeships they did and apprentices they took on 4) as much information on the instruments they built as possible (e.g., materials, costs, labor hired, marketing, prices, famous musicians who played their instruments, and the scope and scale of instrument output).

This is a gargantuan task that will likely consume a great deal of what remains of my professional life. Nunley and I are both from Grundy County, TN, both music nuts and have also specialized in these kinds of years-long economic data collection projects. So, we plan to be thorough. We will write academic papers, some articles for the popular press and hopefully a book from what we learn from these data. The findings could be useful for public policy later on also, as maybe we should not have hollowed out our trade schools and shop classes...

I am looking for some help in finding source materials--catalogs, books, whatever I can take a picture of. I reached out to Fretboard Journal about possibly doing a worldwide survey of luthiers but didn't get a response (they probably thought I was spam). I plan to post a similar message on some other instrument-dedicated forums later to get as many ideas as possible. But the Cafe is my first attempt.

Sorry for the length of this post and I will, ex ante, thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Alan Seals

[Richard500]

I’m still waiting for my newfound wealth as a robot overlord.

[Alan_Seals]

I’m still waiting for my newfound wealth as a robot overlord.

Soon, everyone will have a Dudenbostel.

[Mandobar]

I think that you are going to find that these are small businesses that keep their "data" very close to their chest (as they say). This might be why you did not get a response to your Fretboard Journal inquiry.

You might also consider that there is a lot of intellectual property within this industry, and since most of the builders run companies that are either sole proprietorships or are closely held small companies, they are not required to report any data.

Most people learn about the industry by investing in it, which means buying and selling instruments, and being the customer. It's an expensive proposition. Hopefully, you have grant money ear-marked for this project.

[Hudmister]

A gargantuan task indeed and no clearly evident reward other than academic insight. Luthiers are most probably motivated by a passion for the work and not visions of riches. The large instrument manufacturers may have the most interest in assisting your efforts as there may be some insight gained that can help instrument marketing and sales. As a casual observer of the luthier business, the accumulation of wealth is not the typical outcome unless the business expands into factory production. Most instrument manufacturing these days is assisted by CNC equipment and a completely hand-built instrument is becoming more expensive and rarer. This site (MC) has available data on many mandolin builders.

[oldwave maker]

I've already made tens of dollars this year at Old Wave Heavy Industries Mandolin Stamping facility , and its only April! I plan to retire soon to start making rotary telephones!

[MikeEdgerton]

I'm reminded of the story of the guy that was building mandolins for a living and hit the lottery for ten million dollars. When the television reporter asked him how winning this money would change his life he replied that it probably wouldn't and that he would just keep making mandolins until the money ran out.

[Alan_Seals]

I think that you are going to find that these are small businesses that keep their "data" very close to their chest (as they say). This might be why you did not get a response to your Fretboard Journal inquiry.

You might also consider that there is a lot of intellectual property within this industry, and since most of the builders run companies that are either sole proprietorships or are closely held small companies, they are not required to report any data.

Most people learn about the industry by investing in it, which means buying and selling instruments, and being the customer. It's an expensive proposition. Hopefully, you have grant money ear-marked for this project.

Thank you for the reply. Yes, I suppose I wasn’t clear enough about what it is we want to study. The luthiers who make a living are unlikely to open up their bank accounts and tax returns to us and I would say that is not our goal. I suppose people hear economist and think “money”, which is not far off. But most people who love their work would do it for less pay—I am one of those people—and economists study that kind of behavior too. While money outcomes are not primary, we are interested in market values for these people’s instruments, which we can get pretty close to with published sale and auction prices, and we are interested in length of apprenticeships and where and with whom they trained. Not that interested in any kind of trade secrets they might have.

[Alan_Seals]

You are tracking exactly what we are after. These people are producing unique objects that people can enjoy for centuries and many of them get better with age. It is a fascinating subject and probably why the people who make these instruments don’t want to do anything else.

[Amanda Gregg]

Hi Alan, would love to chat about your project sometime. Btw I also have a Stiver F!

If you have not already, check out the interviews with luthiers on the Mandolins and Beer podcast. It may provide some of the information you will need in terms of facts and dates as well as ideas about mechanisms straight from the horses' mouths.

The adoption of CNC technology in this industry is really interesting.

[Alan_Seals]

Hi Alan, would love to chat about your project sometime. Btw I also have a Stiver F!

If you have not already, check out the interviews with luthiers on the Mandolins and Beer podcast. It may provide some of the information you will need in terms of facts and dates as well as ideas about mechanisms straight from the horses' mouths.

The adoption of CNC technology in this industry is really interesting.

I am very interested in talking to you. Not sure how to DM on this site and I am really bad at social media stuff. I will send an email to you at Middlebury if that's ok with you.

[Magnus Geijer]

Don't know if it's a datapoint you'd consider worthwhile, but I considered attempting full time building. Then spent a little time doing math, and came to the conclusion that I just couldn't see it working out. I've stuck with hobbby building since.

[Alan_Seals]

Don't know if it's a datapoint you'd consider worthwhile, but I considered attempting full time building. Then spent a little time doing math, and came to the conclusion that I just couldn't see it working out. I've stuck with hobbby building since.

As it turns out, you are the most interesting data point of all because you chose not to do it for a living and it would be nice to compare people like you to those who pushed all the chips in to make instruments full time. However, it is likely difficult to identify more people like you who would be "useful" in a statistical analysis.

When I was younger I thought I wanted to be a songwriter in Nashville, with some of my friends. Then I found out if you "made it", you had to go have meetings with other contracted songwriters and pound out some awful, soulless song that would further defile my beloved country music. Now, I am glad I can play whatever kind of music (as badly as I want) and not have the pressure of generating income from it.

[Alan_Seals]

I think that you are going to find that these are small businesses that keep their "data" very close to their chest (as they say). This might be why you did not get a response to your Fretboard Journal inquiry.

You might also consider that there is a lot of intellectual property within this industry, and since most of the builders run companies that are either sole proprietorships or are closely held small companies, they are not required to report any data.

Most people learn about the industry by investing in it, which means buying and selling instruments, and being the customer. It's an expensive proposition. Hopefully, you have grant money ear-marked for this project.

I will fantasize for a while about grant money used to test out fine stringed instruments. Never imagined such. Up till now, I buy them only when the probability of divorce is low!

[Alan_Seals]

I've already made tens of dollars this year at Old Wave Heavy Industries Mandolin Stamping facility , and its only April! I plan to retire soon to start making rotary telephones!

Wow. I looked you up. You make great looking and sounding instruments! Please don't retire. We need to observe you working for longer. I would definitely like to learn more about how you got started.

[Mandobar]

While I think this is a great idea, on paper, I think you need to really think about how large the scope of this is, because you mention violins, mandolins, guitars, etc.
Violin makers operate under a very different business model and environment. They have a very different luthier pool and many do not sell direct (most of the high end makers use agents exclusively). Many of these builders study their craft first at a school like the North Bennett Street School in Boston, and you might be able to track luthiers through there. The study of violin luthiers (and those who make folk style fiddles- because there is a difference) would take a considerable time all by itself.

And just remember, as far as sales go, there are a lot of private sales that go on, some involving the trade of other instruments. Large collections are sometimes sold as just that, a collection. There is absolutely no way, even on sites like Reverb to tell what something actually sold for, and dealers are fairly closed mouthed. As for costs, as an accountant who works with a lot of "artists," and whose friends are mostly luthiers, musicians, painters, potters, sculptures, etc. who ask a lot of questions at tax time- Good luck with that. LOL.


The market segment that you are interested in has its own culture and buyers segment. I think you need to get to know the markets (delve into them, talk to a lot of people, in person, yourself) before you start data mining.

[Alan_Seals]

While I think this is a great idea, on paper, I think you need to really think about how large the scope of this is, because you mention violins, mandolins, guitars, etc.
Violin makers operate under a very different business model and environment. They have a very different luthier pool and many do not sell direct (most of the high end makers use agents exclusively). Many of these builders study their craft first at a school like the North Bennett Street School in Boston, and you might be able to track luthiers through there. The study of violin luthiers (and those who make folk style fiddles- because there is a difference) would take a considerable time all by itself.

And just remember, as far as sales go, there are a lot of private sales that go on, some involving the trade of other instruments. Large collections are sometimes sold as just that, a collection. There is absolutely no way, even on sites like Reverb to tell what something actually sold for, and dealers are fairly closed mouthed. As for costs, as an accountant who works with a lot of "artists," and whose friends are mostly luthiers, musicians, painters, potters, sculptures, etc. who ask a lot of questions at tax time- Good luck with that. LOL.


The market segment that you are interested in has its own culture and buyers segment. I think you need to get to know the markets (delve into them, talk to a lot of people, in person, yourself) before you start data mining.

Thank you for this reply. Very useful. I am almost completely ignorant of the violin market. But I am well aware of private sales and the difference between posted and realized prices on instruments. I would be interested in anyone's ideas about other ways to measure valuations of instruments. I have spent a great deal of time talking with makers and dealers of guitars, banjos, and (over the last two years) mandolins. Interviewing the dealers and luthiers was always part of the plan. I want to go hang out with these people and ask them lots of questions.

[Jim Garber]

Gargantuan is the right descriptive term for this project. Starting from mandolin makers alone by this site’s current tally, there are 619 luthiers who make mandolins. Many of them may make other instruments like guitars, ukuleles and even violins. However add even larger numbers of makers of only guitars, plus makers of only other non-mandolin makers, plus thousands of violin makers and extend all this worldwide… phew!! And I guess you are limiting this to only stringed instrument artisans.

I can’t imagine that two people could handle all this in just two lifetimes. Good luck. You may have to phase all this in in smaller chunks. And also even with just mandolin: take a look of the various styles of mandolin on the Eye Candy page. Best of luck to you and your partner.

In terms of organizations: there is the Guild of American Luthiers and Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans as two starting points. And there are other professional luthier organizations throughout the world.

And are you just interested in living luthiers or all luthiers from all ages?

[Alan_Seals]

Gargantuan is the right descriptive term for this project. Starting from mandolin makers alone by this site’s current tally, there are 619 luthiers who make mandolins. Many of them may make other instruments like guitars, ukuleles and even violins. However add even larger numbers of makers of only guitars, plus makers of only other non-mandolin makers, plus thousands of violin makers and extend all this worldwide… phew!! And I guess you are limiting this to only stringed instrument artisans.

I can’t imagine that two people could handle all this in just two lifetimes. Good luck. You may have to phase all this in in smaller chunks. And also even with just mandolin: take a look of the various styles of mandolin on the Eye Candy page. Best of luck to you and your partner.

In terms of organizations: there is the Guild of American Luthiers and Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans as two starting points. And there are other professional luthier organizations throughout the world.

And are you just interested in living luthiers or all luthiers from all ages?

These are great links. Thank you. It would take two people a lifetime to collect all this by hand. There won't be a John Henry story about me and computer algorithms though. Gonna fire up python or R to do most of the heavy lifting. So, we are interested in all of the luthiers we can get.

[Eric Oliver]

On the interwebs how many forum threads contain the two phrases "Grundy Co. TN" and "Middlebury?" No disrespect to either location.
You might come at your target sort of sideways by building your own mandolins and seeking help, and oh by the way...work in your real goal in a less threatening fashion?

[David Kennedy]

Alan, you may be interested in a book by NK Forster "Making a living in lutherie: from amateur to professional". Nigel is a luthier residing in Australia and did his apprenticeship under Stefan Sobell. He is also a member of this site. https://payhip.com/b/yoJP for the book and https://www.nkforsterguitars.com for his web site. I just noticed that he has a new book "Making a living in lutherie: money and marketing". I have to add that he makes beautiful instruments.

[CarlM]

Another starting point might be some of the luthier schools or programs in the country. There are two or three that I am aware of, one in Red Wing, MN another in Texas and the Troublesome Creek Kentucky program which is more of a rehabilitation program. Google pulls up a number of others. It might be interesting to know how many make a successful career and how many leave due to financial pressure.

I knew the mother of one young man who went through the Red Wing program about ten years ago and ended up at Benedetto. The last I talked to her about 6 years ago, he was about two years out of school and having difficulty with the lack of economic compensation and ability to make ends meet. I have not heard whether he stuck it out or not.

A friend of mine knew Mario Proulx, Canadian guitar builder, fairly well. He said Mario told him he would have been unable to stay in business without artist grants from the Canadian government. That was about eight years ago. I am not sure if that has changed any.

I was kind of a robot underlord for a while, managing CNC router and robotics programmers and fixture builders. Made a living but no vast wealth.

[Mandobar]

Another starting point might be some of the luthier schools or programs in the country. There are two or three that I am aware of, one in Red Wing, MN another in Texas and the Troublesome Creek Kentucky program which is more of a rehabilitation program. Google pulls up a number of others. It might be interesting to know how many make a successful career and how many leave due to financial pressure.

I knew the mother of one young man who went through the Red Wing program about ten years ago and ended up at Benedetto. The last I talked to her about 6 years ago, he was about two years out of school and having difficulty with the lack of economic compensation and ability to make ends meet. I have not heard whether he stuck it out or not.

A friend of mine knew Mario Proulx, Canadian guitar builder, fairly well. He said Mario told him he would have been unable to stay in business without artist grants from the Canadian government. That was about eight years ago. I am not sure if that has changed any.

I was kind of a robot underlord for a while, managing CNC router and robotics programmers and fixture builders. Made a living but no vast wealth.

Many builders will take on repair work (which is much more lucrative) to fill in the economic gaps.

Alan, I wish you luck and will offer one more very important piece of advice. Open your wallet. The people who are talking to you are taking time our of their days, their businesses, and their lives to talk to you. Participate in their economy.

[Alan_Seals]

Alan, you may be interested in a book by NK Forster "Making a living in lutherie: from amateur to professional". Nigel is a luthier residing in Australia and did his apprenticeship under Stefan Sobell. He is also a member of this site. https://payhip.com/b/yoJP for the book and https://www.nkforsterguitars.com for his web site. I just noticed that he has a new book "Making a living in lutherie: money and marketing". I have to add that he makes beautiful instruments.

This is exactly what I need to read. Thank you very much.

[Alan_Seals]

Another starting point might be some of the luthier schools or programs in the country. There are two or three that I am aware of, one in Red Wing, MN another in Texas and the Troublesome Creek Kentucky program which is more of a rehabilitation program. Google pulls up a number of others. It might be interesting to know how many make a successful career and how many leave due to financial pressure.

I knew the mother of one young man who went through the Red Wing program about ten years ago and ended up at Benedetto. The last I talked to her about 6 years ago, he was about two years out of school and having difficulty with the lack of economic compensation and ability to make ends meet. I have not heard whether he stuck it out or not.

A friend of mine knew Mario Proulx, Canadian guitar builder, fairly well. He said Mario told him he would have been unable to stay in business without artist grants from the Canadian government. That was about eight years ago. I am not sure if that has changed any.

I was kind of a robot underlord for a while, managing CNC router and robotics programmers and fixture builders. Made a living but no vast wealth.

Fascinating. I bought a guitar made by David Rouse. I believe he works (or at one point did work) in some sort of artisan colony, subsidized by UK govt.