Very pretty tuners had to be put on upside down 😭 (Gibson A)

[devlord]

I have a 100-year-old Gibson A-style which was having some intonation issues. Local luthier worked on the nut but it wasn't enough, so we opted for new tuning machines. They look really nice, but they had to be put on upside-down in order to fit on the headstock. This means I have to turn the pegs in the opposite direction of all my other stringed instruments.



I think they came from here.

Has anyone else had this problem before?

[MikeEdgerton]

I guess I don't see why he didn't just put them on the right sides. Those are worm under tuners. Show us a picture of the front of the headstock. Look at the picture on the Stewmac site. The worm gear is below the cog.

[pops1]

A couple decades ago I replaced the tuners on my Gibson. There weren't tuners that fit the spacing then so I had to cut the plates. I turned the tuners around because the screw holes lined up better. I still had to drill one hole in the plate to match up with the mandolin, didn't want to change the mandolin. I don't mind them turning backwards.

[sunburst]

If the problem is intonation, the tuners don't really have anything to do with that as long as they work at all.

[Mandobart]

I've put those Stew-Mac Golden age tuning machines on two instruments from the 1930's. I'm having trouble understanding why they "had to" be mounted upside down/backwards.

[rcc56]

The tuners pictured are made to fit 1910 - c.1923 Gibsons.
If your instrument was made after that, these tuners are not the correct style.

[devlord]

I guess I don't see why he didn't just put them on the right sides. Those are worm under tuners. Show us a picture of the front of the headstock. Look at the picture on the Stewmac site. The worm gear is below the cog.

Here's the front.



And here's what happened when he tried to install them the right way:

[devlord]

The tuners pictured are made to fit 1910 - c.1923 Gibsons.
If your instrument was made after that, these tuners are not the correct style.

Looks to be a 1928, 5 numbers off from this guy.

[rcc56]

A better choice would be the #2511 or 2512 Golden Age tuners, or any modern tuner with "worm over" gears.
I also suspect that the teens style tuners you have installed will tend to bind-- they have a different post spacing than tuners made for instruments build after the mid 1920's.

[Fretbear]

And here's what happened when he tried to install them the right way:

It's called a "Grinder....."

[devlord]

A better choice would be the #2511 or 2512...

On the original machines the worm threads lean to the right; whereas for the 2511s, the threads lean towards the center. What's end-result behavior does this lead to?

[devlord]

The A strings don't stay in tune. Halfway through a reel you have to stop and tune again. If it's not the tuning machines that's the problem, and the nut has already been situated, then what would the issue be? Can I safely put the original tuners back on?

[rcc56]

On the original machines the worm threads lean to the right; whereas for the 2511s, the threads lean towards the center. What's end-result behavior does this lead to?

I just looked at Stewmac's pictures of the 2511's again, and their pictures don't make sense. In all but one of their pictures, the threads on the treble side strip lean to the upper right while the threads on the bass strip lean left, which doesn't make sense on anything. Both sides should lean in the same direction, which should be to the upper right for worm over tuners. They definitely have some explaining to do. Until they straighten this out, I would not recommend using the 2511's.

In the meantime, I now suggest that if you buy another set of tuners, get some "worm over" Grovers or better grade Gotohs instead. You can also check with Rubner and see if they have anything that would be suitable. Whatever you get, make sure they are meant to be used "worm over."

There's a possibility that a tight nut slot is causing a tuning problem. Also, check the A strings themselves and make sure the loop ends are not slipping down the string. There's also a remote possibility that one of the hooks in the tailpiece is starting to give way. If your problems are due to any of these things, then yes, you can try the original tuners after the problem is remedied.

[pops1]

It still could be the nut, could be the bridge slots. If you are still having the same problem, it wasn't the tuners. It's hard to diagnose without the mandolin in hand. Are the strings going sharp? If so, you may need more work on the nut.

[Steve 2E]

I just looked at Stewmac's pictures of the 2511's again, and their pictures don't make sense. In all but one of their pictures, the threads on the treble side strip lean to the upper right while the threads on the bass strip lean left, which doesn't make sense on anything. Both sides should lean in the same direction, which should be to the upper right for worm over tuners. They definitely have some explaining to do. Until they straighten this out, I would not recommend using the 2511's.

I have 2511's on one of my mandolins and both sides do lean to the right. I actually just ordered another set yesterday for another mandolin and I'm planning on them both leaning to the right. I didn't look too closely at the pictures, I just ordered what I wanted. Hopefully it's just that Stewmac's pictures are messed up and not the actual tuners. I'll post again when they arrive.

[rcc56]

I just looked again-again, and I see what they have done.
They just took a picture of one strip of tuners, and photo-shopped a mirror image instead of using pictures of a complete set.
Look at the screws-- that's the giveaway.

It gives a pretty picture, but creates confusion because the direction of the gear cut must be correct for the instrument when choosing a set of tuners, and the cut of the gears for worm over tuners will be the reverse of the cut for worm under tuners. Install the wrong type on an instrument, and that's a problem.

If anyone from Stewmac is reading this, y'all need to fix this. Now.

I shouldn't be spending my time on this. I've got unstarted work waiting to go on the bench, and a dozen or more tax forms to fill out by April 17.

[Richard500]

Tax forms can be photoshopped too. Fakery seems popular.
Again, intonation doesn’t involve tuners. Sloppy tuning, slipping, if not sticking at the nut, is more likely bad tuner post alignment causing high friction. There seem to be more than two possible post spacings, wear and wood movement play a part too. The best tuners made will not cure misalignment.
Beyond that, and string loop slippage, there are far nastier possibilities.

[devlord]

There's a possibility that a tight nut slot is causing a tuning problem. Also, check the A strings themselves and make sure the loop ends are not slipping down the string. There's also a remote possibility that one of the hooks in the tailpiece is starting to give way. If your problems are due to any of these things, then yes, you can try the original tuners after the problem is remedied.

Come to think of it, I don't like how the loops don't seem to be pulled as tight as they ought to be.



Should I skip the angles for now and just use the single vertical hooks for the A's?

[pops1]

Come to think of it, I don't like how the loops don't seem to be pulled as tight as they ought to be.



Should I skip the angles for now and just use the single vertical hooks for the A's?

No, it looks just fine. The loops shouldn't pull tight and using two hooks for the plain strings isn't necessary these days, but I still do it. It's not your problem unless the A strings are going flat and you can see the loops getting smaller. Doesn't look like that is happening. One A string loop is smaller, but you mentioned the A strings are going out of tune. Is one going sharp and one going flat? I would think the loop would be tight against the hook if it were the cause.

[Dave Hanson]

I can't see the point in using all the hooks, it's just adding another kink in the strings when you don't need to.

Dave H

[MikeEdgerton]

It would appear that by that point in time Gibson was using a totally different tuner style than the two types that are available. If the post spacing is an issue I'd be more inclined to grind of a wiggle end piece. Those tuners have the old spacing. If the spacing is actually the modern spacing I'd probably put a set of Rubners on it. Have you still got the original tuners?

https://www.rubnertuners.com/mandolin-machines

[devlord]

I can't see the point in using all the hooks, it's just adding another kink in the strings when you don't need to.

Be careful, there's a very long thread in here about those Gibson tailpieces...

[devlord]

It would appear that by that point in time Gibson was using a totally different tuner style than the two types that are available. If the post spacing is an issue I'd be more inclined to grind of a wiggle end piece. Those tuners have the old spacing. If the spacing is actually the modern spacing I'd probably put a set of Rubners on it. Have you still got the original tuners?

Yes, I do. I'm presuming the spacing is 23 mm because the worm-under StewMac fit fine (just upside-down). I talked to the luthier and he said the 2511s weren't an option when he checked last, he only saw the $500 Waverly's.

[MikeEdgerton]

Yes, I do. I'm presuming the spacing is 23 mm because the worm-under StewMac fit fine (just upside-down). I talked to the luthier and he said the 2511s weren't an option when he checked last, he only saw the $500 Waverly's.

Save yourself some trouble and find someone familiar with mandolins. There are two Stewmac restoration tuner models, one for the old spacing of 23.60mm post center to post center that was used early on by Gibson and the other uses the modern 23.0mm spacing.

If your post spacing was the older spacing you have one choice and they are currently installed upside down on your mandolin. Those are 23.60mm. If you have the modern spacingof 23.0mm that I think you should have there are a heck of a lot more mandolin tuners available. If all he knows about are the Waverly tuners you need to broaden your horizons.

[devlord]

It still could be the nut, could be the bridge slots. If you are still having the same problem, it wasn't the tuners. It's hard to diagnose without the mandolin in hand. Are the strings going sharp? If so, you may need more work on the nut.

Basically I can turn the pegs on either of the A's and nothing happens. I keep turning and suddenly it's too sharp so I have to turn it back the other way. I think this is most likely a nut issue.