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Thread: minor ii V i question

  1. #1

    Default minor ii V i question

    Hey guys, I signed up for a video course to learn jazz standards and I'm doing one on minor jazz blues and had a question. So the guy is going over the first minor blues form we'll be using (in c minor) he says that the turnaround is using a "tritone sub of ii" and illustrates that we're in c minor so the ii is Dm7b5 (so far I'm following). Then he says something to the effect of "so the ii chord here is D" and I'm pretty sure he's talking D7 here because Ab7 is the tritone sub for D7 and Ab7 is the chord on the chart. So (theoretically) I understand what's happening, I guess it's just the way that Dm7b5 (which I understand is the ii) becomes D7 is the ii? Is that “normal” jazz lingo? How can a ii chord be a dominant 7 chord? I’m confused…any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    I assume that the chords involved are D min7b5 - G7 - C min. If so, I think that either your instructor doesn't understand tri-tone substitutions, or he's not explaining clearly, or you're missing something that he did or didn't say.

    ii min7b5 in this context is not a substitution for anything. It is simply the normal voicing for a ii chord in common practice harmony for both harmonic minor and natural minor. In other words, Beethoven and Bird both used it and did not call it a tri-tone substitution. They both simply called it ii - V - i, although Beethoven might [or might not] have been more specific and said "ii 7 [half diminished] - V7 - i."

    Now if the chord progression was D min7b5 - Db7 - C min, the Db7 would be a tritone substitution for the G7 [usually altered with a b9 or #9] V7 chord.

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  4. #3

    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    Ahhhh gotcha! Thanks! Ok, so if a "normal" ii7 - V7 - i (in c minor) is:

    D min7b5 - G7 - C minor
    but in my course we're using:
    Ab7 - G7 - C minor

    Does changing D min7b5 to Ab7 have a "theoretical label" or is it just something we're using in this context that sounds jazzy and cool?
    Thanks again!

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    Registered User BillWilliams's Avatar
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    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    Thanks for raising an interesting question. Probably someone here will come up with appropriate harmonic theory.

    I don’t know of a label for the Ab7 in this case, but I believe it has been a standard usage for the cadence at the end of a jazz minor blues since the 1940s (e.g.Djangos Blues en Mineur) .

    The Ab7 has 2 notes (C and Ab) in common with the Dmin7b5 and I’ve always thought of it as having the function of the IImin7b5 in a minor blues context. I guess it works here through voice leading because all the notes of Ab7 resolve by a half tone to G7.

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    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    OK. Technically speaking, if the progression is Ab7 - G7 - C min, the Ab7 is a tri-tone substitution for the Dmin7b5. In classical lingo, it serves as a "secondary dominant" chord.
    And we see this progression frequently in very old jazz. It is common in Dixieland.
    And we hear it in lots of other places. One example is "The Thrill is Gone."
    But, I don't hear it or think of it in the same way that I hear Bill Evans' use of tri-tone substitutions.

    When I hear it used as a cadentional progression at the end of a section, I hear it and call it VI-V-i. Some folks would say bVI-V-i, but the flat is "technically" correct only if the phrase suggest major tonality, and the resolution is to C major. i.e. Ab7 - G7 - Cmajor, which is usually called bVI-V-I.

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    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    I am not a jazz chord expert, I was trained in and taught AP Music Theory, the curriculum of which is focused on what most would consider "classical" harmony and the "AP test." I've had people tell me there's no difference, partly true except some chords are named differently. When I took a class in swing/jazz harmonies (sadly after retiring) I was confused with all the "flat 9th sub for the V7" talk but eventually understood it was a matter of function: this chord going to that chord. As rc56 said, Beethoven and Bird used these chords but probably had different names and probably different ways of thinking about them. I wish now I could go back and do more of this in my AP Theory course: once I got past the initial confusion I understood harmony better.

    But one very important thing to consider in this discussion is the mandolin itself: you only have so many string and finger options; you often can't play every note in a 4-note chord, so all kinds of substitutions, roots-left-out, and quirky things come up. I wonder if that might explain the Dm/dim7 versus Ab issue, but as I said: not a jazz expert, and many years ago was taught by people who had very rigid ideas.
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    Registered User Bruce Clausen's Avatar
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    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    In the progression Dm7b5 to G7 to Cm, the ii chord is diatonic, that is, containing only scale notes. Jazzy chord substitutions tend to involve replacing scale notes with chromatic alterations. So for G7 we'll use G7b5 or G7+5, etc. Now D7b5 (d-f#-ab-c) sounds just like Ab7b5 (ab-c-ebb-gb). This is where the idea of 'tritone substitute' comes in. The ii chord can be altered to D7b5, and then further altered or extended. Likewise the G7 can be altered of extended.

    The altered ii chord is a "secodary dominant", that is it leads to the next chord as a dominant resolving to a tonic (which then in turn is treated as a dominant chord). In classical theory the chord we're calling Ab7b5 is an augmented sixth chord, with f#, not gb. We may think it as a bVI substituting for a II, but that is strictly a jazz way of talking.

    A few new posts since I started this. Hope it helps.
    Last edited by Bruce Clausen; Apr-02-2023 at 12:57pm.

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  12. #8
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    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    In classical theory, the Ab7 chord will often be called a "German sixth [Ger6+]," depending upon its context and resolution.
    It is one of three so-called "augmented sixth" chords-- the others are the French sixth and the Italian sixth.
    In such cases, the "correct" spelling of the Ger6+ would be Ab-C-Eb-F#. The interval between Ab and F# is the augmented sixth.
    In "correct" application, F# and Ab serve as the "lower and upper leading tones" of G.

    Augmented sixth chords, and their spellings, resolutions, and contexts, are a rabbit hole I will not venture upon further today.

    It's all about the sound anyway.

  13. #9

    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    Hey everyone! Wow, cool stuff! Thank you all for the information! Much appreciated!

  14. #10

    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    A lot of people have chimed in with a lot of great information. I thought I would add one more little piece that I find interesting...

    Regarding tritone substitutions, I have only heard the term used in reference to dominant 7th chords (or secondary dominants). Tritone substitution works because of how the notes of the V7 and its corresponding tritone sub resolve. For instance, assuming the key of C, your V7 is G7, with the notes G, B, D, and F. The 3rd (B) resolves to (C), the root of the I chord. The 7th (F) resolves to (E), the 3rd of the I chord. Now looking at Db7 (the tritone sub for G7) you have the notes Db, F, Ab, and Cb (=B). Notice that the 3rd and 7th of G7 and Db7 are the same two notes (B, F) and will resolve in the same way (though their relative positions are inverted within the tritone substitution.)

    Hopefully someone finds that helpful.
    Last edited by Colin Botts; Apr-02-2023 at 11:38pm. Reason: typo

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    Registered User Pete Martin's Avatar
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    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    Like Bill said:

    Ab7 = Ab C Eb Gb
    Dm7b5 = D F Ab C

    Since 2 notes are in common they can substitute for each other. I hear Ab7 to G7 to Cm (#V to V To Im) used often in tunes in place of IIm7b5 V Im and do it myself when I want a change up.
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    Joe B mandopops's Avatar
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    Default Re: minor ii V i question

    In minor Blues it’s common to have a #5-5- back to the 1 cadence, (Ab-G7-Cmin). St. James Infirmary, Thrill is Gone etc. Lonnie Johnson, even in major keys, would just throw that move in. I don’t think of it as a sub, maybe just an added passing chord. I think it adds a little drama.

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